Author Topic: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles  (Read 24666 times)

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #315 on: January 07, 2016, 03:35:31 PM »
Dorst Hornbush says Helles MUST HAVE the protein rest for 30 minutes at 122F or 50C. If you choose to skip this rest, he says it is not a true helles. I'm not so sure about that, but whatevs... I plan to include it in my next helles just because. I usually do a Hochkurz step infusion mash, it's easy enough. I've actually been conditioning my grain lately before mashing in as well. I really like what that's doing for the crush and the run off of the mash.

No offense to Horst... Actually I don't really care. You do rests based on malt, not based on style. unless you are getting very green malt, which you are not because it has a shelf life of like days...Overworking the malt will hurt you. Rests and temps are ALWAYS based on this. Infusion/step and decoction will change those times as well.

For the record... *dmtaylor Likes this*   ^^^^^

Seems I've been missing out on some great discussions recently.  Welcome back (although you sure weren't gone for long... just a few days!? just couldn't NOT participate... right??  ;)  ).
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline The Beerery

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #316 on: January 07, 2016, 03:46:49 PM »
Dorst Hornbush says Helles MUST HAVE the protein rest for 30 minutes at 122F or 50C. If you choose to skip this rest, he says it is not a true helles. I'm not so sure about that, but whatevs... I plan to include it in my next helles just because. I usually do a Hochkurz step infusion mash, it's easy enough. I've actually been conditioning my grain lately before mashing in as well. I really like what that's doing for the crush and the run off of the mash.

No offense to Horst... Actually I don't really care. You do rests based on malt, not based on style. unless you are getting very green malt, which you are not because it has a shelf life of like days...Overworking the malt will hurt you. Rests and temps are ALWAYS based on this. Infusion/step and decoction will change those times as well.

For the record... *dmtaylor Likes this*   ^^^^^

Seems I've been missing out on some great discussions recently.  Welcome back (although you sure weren't gone for long... just a few days!? just couldn't NOT participate... right??  ;)  ).

Well yea, I got a few emails and what not asking me to come back. Maybe just maybe I will change someone into a German style brewer and seems some people care about the styles.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #317 on: January 07, 2016, 03:55:42 PM »
I achieved "it" once.  "It" was very nice, very very nice........  I have not brewed any lagers in a few years now.  Time to brew another one very soon.

Just don't do a protein rest.  Poor efficiency (on purpose!) also helps (gasp! yes!).
Dave

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Offline The Beerery

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #318 on: January 07, 2016, 03:59:43 PM »
I achieved "it" once.  "It" was very nice, very very nice........  I have not brewed any lagers in a few years now.  Time to brew another one very soon.

Just don't do a protein rest.  Poor efficiency (on purpose!) also helps (gasp! yes!).

Care to explain your brew process? Very curious, and I like details.. prefermentation mostly.  8)

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #319 on: January 07, 2016, 05:04:21 PM »
Care to explain your brew process? Very curious, and I like details.. prefermentation mostly.  8)

Sure... My "Dave's Double Decoction with Minimal Minutes and Minimal Messing Around Method" is similar to Kai Troester's double decoction method, with personalized tweaks.  Like I said, it's been a few years, so these notes actually date back to 2013 (copy & paste):

0) This is a no-sparge process.  If you don't have enough volume after the decoctions, just add more water.  Expect an efficiency hit for this, and add extra malt up front to compensate.  More malt = more malt flavor!

1) Calculate the strike volume using about 1.5 to 1.75 qts/lb -- maximum for small beers, minimum for bigger beers.
2) Treat the strike volume with salts as necessary, then bring 1/3 of it to a boil.
3) Meanwhile, use the other 2/3 of the strike volume to moisten the crushed grains cold at room temperature.
4) Add the boiled volume into the moistened grains.  Resultant temperature should be 95 to 105 F.
5) Immediately pull 2/3 of the thick mash using a colander, and add heat to hit 154 F for 15 minutes.
6) Add 1-2 qt warm water (exact temperature not too important) to the first decoction per 5-gallon batch size (disregard exactness of preboil volume at this point), then bring to boil for 15-40 minutes -- maximums for dark beers, minimums for light.
7) Add first decoction back into the main mash and rest at average >=148 F for 15 minutes (exact temperature not terribly important, between 148-158 F should be fine).
8 ) Pull 1/3 of thin mash and bring to a boil.
9) Immediately upon the second decoction reaching a reasonable boil, add the second decoction right back into the main mash -- no waiting around.  Resultant temperature should be ~170 F for mashout.
10) Immediately pull the grain bag (if BIAB) or runoff and continue brewing as normal.

Honestly I can't say I've done this process with no sparge yet.  Last time I sparged and it turned out great.  But in future I intend to try it as a no-sparge process, as part of my underlying and continuing theory that less sparging = more malt necessary = more malt flavor in the final beer!

The universe can debate the merits of this process or lack thereof all you want.  This is the way I shall do it for at least the next couple batches, until such time as I might continue to tweak the process again.  To each their own.  8)

EDIT: By the way..... a good 6 months of lagering and/or aging seems to help, too.  Good thing I'm lazy and don't drink heavily.

Oh, and other thing: Boil all your noble hops for a full hour.  Tastes yummy that way.  You don't need any late hop additions.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 05:22:43 PM by dmtaylor »
Dave

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Offline BrodyR

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #320 on: January 07, 2016, 05:09:14 PM »
Malt conditioning...  add that to cheaper prices, crush control, and more selection (Chit Malt) as yet another reason I need to invest in a crusher.

Offline JT

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #321 on: January 08, 2016, 04:06:48 AM »
Care to explain your brew process? Very curious, and I like details.. prefermentation mostly.  8)

Sure... My "Dave's Double Decoction with Minimal Minutes and Minimal Messing Around Method" is similar to Kai Troester's double decoction method, with personalized tweaks.  Like I said, it's been a few years, so these notes actually date back to 2013 (copy & paste):

0) This is a no-sparge process.  If you don't have enough volume after the decoctions, just add more water.  Expect an efficiency hit for this, and add extra malt up front to compensate.  More malt = more malt flavor!

1) Calculate the strike volume using about 1.5 to 1.75 qts/lb -- maximum for small beers, minimum for bigger beers.
2) Treat the strike volume with salts as necessary, then bring 1/3 of it to a boil.
3) Meanwhile, use the other 2/3 of the strike volume to moisten the crushed grains cold at room temperature.
4) Add the boiled volume into the moistened grains.  Resultant temperature should be 95 to 105 F.
5) Immediately pull 2/3 of the thick mash using a colander, and add heat to hit 154 F for 15 minutes.
6) Add 1-2 qt warm water (exact temperature not too important) to the first decoction per 5-gallon batch size (disregard exactness of preboil volume at this point), then bring to boil for 15-40 minutes -- maximums for dark beers, minimums for light.
7) Add first decoction back into the main mash and rest at average >=148 F for 15 minutes (exact temperature not terribly important, between 148-158 F should be fine).
8 ) Pull 1/3 of thin mash and bring to a boil.
9) Immediately upon the second decoction reaching a reasonable boil, add the second decoction right back into the main mash -- no waiting around.  Resultant temperature should be ~170 F for mashout.
10) Immediately pull the grain bag (if BIAB) or runoff and continue brewing as normal.

Honestly I can't say I've done this process with no sparge yet.  Last time I sparged and it turned out great.  But in future I intend to try it as a no-sparge process, as part of my underlying and continuing theory that less sparging = more malt necessary = more malt flavor in the final beer!

The universe can debate the merits of this process or lack thereof all you want.  This is the way I shall do it for at least the next couple batches, until such time as I might continue to tweak the process again.  To each their own.  8)

EDIT: By the way..... a good 6 months of lagering and/or aging seems to help, too.  Good thing I'm lazy and don't drink heavily.

Oh, and other thing: Boil all your noble hops for a full hour.  Tastes yummy that way.  You don't need any late hop additions.
See how easy that was? No secret squirrel code, no cryptic messages, no translations needed.    Thanks Dave!

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #322 on: January 08, 2016, 12:27:06 PM »
I tried malt conditioning this week.  It was interesting how well the husks remained in tact.  So much so that I may have to adjust my mill to a finer crush, as I actually lost efficiency because so many grains were squeezed through instead of being crushed.  I do have it set for a coarse crush though. 

Seems like a lot of material remained on the rollers.  Do you worry about rust or mold? 

Offline The Beerery

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #323 on: January 08, 2016, 01:20:45 PM »


Seems like a lot of material remained on the rollers.  Do you worry about rust or mold?

You used too much water or didn't wait long enough for the husks to absorb the water. Rollers should be clean.

Offline The Beerery

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #324 on: January 08, 2016, 01:25:31 PM »
Care to explain your brew process? Very curious, and I like details.. prefermentation mostly.  8)

Sure... My "Dave's Double Decoction with Minimal Minutes and Minimal Messing Around Method" is similar to Kai Troester's double decoction method, with personalized tweaks.  Like I said, it's been a few years, so these notes actually date back to 2013 (copy & paste):

0) This is a no-sparge process.  If you don't have enough volume after the decoctions, just add more water.  Expect an efficiency hit for this, and add extra malt up front to compensate.  More malt = more malt flavor!

1) Calculate the strike volume using about 1.5 to 1.75 qts/lb -- maximum for small beers, minimum for bigger beers.
2) Treat the strike volume with salts as necessary, then bring 1/3 of it to a boil.
3) Meanwhile, use the other 2/3 of the strike volume to moisten the crushed grains cold at room temperature.
4) Add the boiled volume into the moistened grains.  Resultant temperature should be 95 to 105 F.
5) Immediately pull 2/3 of the thick mash using a colander, and add heat to hit 154 F for 15 minutes.
6) Add 1-2 qt warm water (exact temperature not too important) to the first decoction per 5-gallon batch size (disregard exactness of preboil volume at this point), then bring to boil for 15-40 minutes -- maximums for dark beers, minimums for light.
7) Add first decoction back into the main mash and rest at average >=148 F for 15 minutes (exact temperature not terribly important, between 148-158 F should be fine).
8 ) Pull 1/3 of thin mash and bring to a boil.
9) Immediately upon the second decoction reaching a reasonable boil, add the second decoction right back into the main mash -- no waiting around.  Resultant temperature should be ~170 F for mashout.
10) Immediately pull the grain bag (if BIAB) or runoff and continue brewing as normal.

Honestly I can't say I've done this process with no sparge yet.  Last time I sparged and it turned out great.  But in future I intend to try it as a no-sparge process, as part of my underlying and continuing theory that less sparging = more malt necessary = more malt flavor in the final beer!

The universe can debate the merits of this process or lack thereof all you want.  This is the way I shall do it for at least the next couple batches, until such time as I might continue to tweak the process again.  To each their own.  8)

EDIT: By the way..... a good 6 months of lagering and/or aging seems to help, too.  Good thing I'm lazy and don't drink heavily.

Oh, and other thing: Boil all your noble hops for a full hour.  Tastes yummy that way.  You don't need any late hop additions.
See how easy that was? No secret squirrel code, no cryptic messages, no translations needed.    Thanks Dave!


Sure follow that... It *might* get you on the same continent.

I actually find it pretty funny that everyone is gimme gimme, and no one wants to even try.That type of attitude may work for others, but that falls on deaf ears for me, sorry.

Offline JT

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #325 on: January 08, 2016, 01:41:52 PM »
Care to explain your brew process? Very curious, and I like details.. prefermentation mostly.  8)

Sure... My "Dave's Double Decoction with Minimal Minutes and Minimal Messing Around Method" is similar to Kai Troester's double decoction method, with personalized tweaks.  Like I said, it's been a few years, so these notes actually date back to 2013 (copy & paste):

0) This is a no-sparge process.  If you don't have enough volume after the decoctions, just add more water.  Expect an efficiency hit for this, and add extra malt up front to compensate.  More malt = more malt flavor!

1) Calculate the strike volume using about 1.5 to 1.75 qts/lb -- maximum for small beers, minimum for bigger beers.
2) Treat the strike volume with salts as necessary, then bring 1/3 of it to a boil.
3) Meanwhile, use the other 2/3 of the strike volume to moisten the crushed grains cold at room temperature.
4) Add the boiled volume into the moistened grains.  Resultant temperature should be 95 to 105 F.
5) Immediately pull 2/3 of the thick mash using a colander, and add heat to hit 154 F for 15 minutes.
6) Add 1-2 qt warm water (exact temperature not too important) to the first decoction per 5-gallon batch size (disregard exactness of preboil volume at this point), then bring to boil for 15-40 minutes -- maximums for dark beers, minimums for light.
7) Add first decoction back into the main mash and rest at average >=148 F for 15 minutes (exact temperature not terribly important, between 148-158 F should be fine).
8 ) Pull 1/3 of thin mash and bring to a boil.
9) Immediately upon the second decoction reaching a reasonable boil, add the second decoction right back into the main mash -- no waiting around.  Resultant temperature should be ~170 F for mashout.
10) Immediately pull the grain bag (if BIAB) or runoff and continue brewing as normal.

Honestly I can't say I've done this process with no sparge yet.  Last time I sparged and it turned out great.  But in future I intend to try it as a no-sparge process, as part of my underlying and continuing theory that less sparging = more malt necessary = more malt flavor in the final beer!

The universe can debate the merits of this process or lack thereof all you want.  This is the way I shall do it for at least the next couple batches, until such time as I might continue to tweak the process again.  To each their own.  8)

EDIT: By the way..... a good 6 months of lagering and/or aging seems to help, too.  Good thing I'm lazy and don't drink heavily.

Oh, and other thing: Boil all your noble hops for a full hour.  Tastes yummy that way.  You don't need any late hop additions.
See how easy that was? No secret squirrel code, no cryptic messages, no translations needed.    Thanks Dave!


Sure follow that... It *might* get you on the same continent.

I actually find it pretty funny that everyone is gimme gimme, and no one wants to even try.That type of attitude may work for others, but that falls on deaf ears for me, sorry.
Here, you asked, he answered.  Others have asked you basically the same thing and received "learn German" as a response. 

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #326 on: January 08, 2016, 01:45:22 PM »
Here we go again.
Dave

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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #327 on: January 08, 2016, 01:51:52 PM »
I actually find it pretty funny that everyone is gimme gimme, and no one wants to even try.That type of attitude may work for others, but that falls on deaf ears for me, sorry.



You definitely have a unique approach to the brewing forum - show up, tease your expert lager knowledge, then call us lazy for not trying. Utterly and completely the opposite purpose of a good brewing forum. Kudos. I still call trolling.
Jon H.

Offline The Beerery

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #328 on: January 08, 2016, 02:03:24 PM »
Here you go, here is a snippit of a recent non-decoction helles. I add water to grain like everyone else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kG41xcdiSU

Offline The Beerery

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #329 on: January 08, 2016, 02:22:05 PM »
Care to explain your brew process? Very curious, and I like details.. prefermentation mostly.  8)

Sure... My "Dave's Double Decoction with Minimal Minutes and Minimal Messing Around Method" is similar to Kai Troester's double decoction method, with personalized tweaks.  Like I said, it's been a few years, so these notes actually date back to 2013 (copy & paste):

0) This is a no-sparge process.  If you don't have enough volume after the decoctions, just add more water.  Expect an efficiency hit for this, and add extra malt up front to compensate.  More malt = more malt flavor!

1) Calculate the strike volume using about 1.5 to 1.75 qts/lb -- maximum for small beers, minimum for bigger beers.
2) Treat the strike volume with salts as necessary, then bring 1/3 of it to a boil.
3) Meanwhile, use the other 2/3 of the strike volume to moisten the crushed grains cold at room temperature.
4) Add the boiled volume into the moistened grains.  Resultant temperature should be 95 to 105 F.
5) Immediately pull 2/3 of the thick mash using a colander, and add heat to hit 154 F for 15 minutes.
6) Add 1-2 qt warm water (exact temperature not too important) to the first decoction per 5-gallon batch size (disregard exactness of preboil volume at this point), then bring to boil for 15-40 minutes -- maximums for dark beers, minimums for light.
7) Add first decoction back into the main mash and rest at average >=148 F for 15 minutes (exact temperature not terribly important, between 148-158 F should be fine).
8 ) Pull 1/3 of thin mash and bring to a boil.
9) Immediately upon the second decoction reaching a reasonable boil, add the second decoction right back into the main mash -- no waiting around.  Resultant temperature should be ~170 F for mashout.
10) Immediately pull the grain bag (if BIAB) or runoff and continue brewing as normal.

Honestly I can't say I've done this process with no sparge yet.  Last time I sparged and it turned out great.  But in future I intend to try it as a no-sparge process, as part of my underlying and continuing theory that less sparging = more malt necessary = more malt flavor in the final beer!

The universe can debate the merits of this process or lack thereof all you want.  This is the way I shall do it for at least the next couple batches, until such time as I might continue to tweak the process again.  To each their own.  8)

EDIT: By the way..... a good 6 months of lagering and/or aging seems to help, too.  Good thing I'm lazy and don't drink heavily.

Oh, and other thing: Boil all your noble hops for a full hour.  Tastes yummy that way.  You don't need any late hop additions.

Have to say... Good on ya! Looks like a solid decoction brew, and I can certainly appreciate that. I can see why you got a little it in it.