[klickitat jim]

Nice find Jim. How did I never see that with all of my poking around Kai's site?

Agreed, good find Jim. Can't believe I've never found that on Kai's site either. This thread is much more informative than the "wouldn't you like to know" answer I received previously.

I've been playing with this subject at home, but I haven't taken very good notes - just more of a 'does this make a difference?' kind of thing. I'll be reporting some findings in the near future.

Thanks Amanda. And yes, please report your findings and opinions.

This has been a fun little discovery. Obviously the ground work on the math is all Kai's work. My discovery, which probably isn't my discovery, is how Kai's math seems to apply not just to the mash but also to every following step clear to the glass.

I also think that if some repeat Ninkasi winners did it by blending beers, then adjusting final ph to dial in flavor ought to be totally accepted anywhere but Reinheitsgebot breweries

[AmandaK]

Jim, I did a lot of tracking and fiddling on my brew last night. Brewed an altbier, 3 gallon batch.

4.5lb Best Pilsner
2.75lb Best Munich
6oz Best Wheat Malt
4oz CaraMunich III (80L)
1oz Carafa II
------
Herkules, 0.5oz @ 60', 15.8%
Vanguard, 0.25oz @ 15', 4.8%
Vanguard, 0.5oz @ 5', 4.8%
------
1L, shaken not stirred starter, in 5L flask - WY1007 from July 2015

Water profile, built from RO: Ca 51ppm, Mg 8ppm, Na 83ppm, SO4 55ppm, Cl 55ppm, SO4:Cl 1.5
Brunwater Profile: Amber Dry
Mash: Dough In @ 104F, hold for 10'. Ramp to 145F, hold for 40'. Ramp to 158F, hold for 20'. Ramp to 175F, hold for 10'. Conversion efficiency: 92%.

Actual mash pH: 5.51, taken 10' into the beta rest. I wanted 5.42, but I let it ride.
Starting boil pH: 5.45.
Arbitrary target was between 5.1 and 5.2, so I worked off of the "0.15mL of 88% lactic per lb of grain to drop by 0.1 pH" suggestion from you/Kai. With 7.94 lbs of grain, that worked out to 2.4mL lactic. Injected it inline and then waited 10' for it to stabilize throughout the system.
Adjusted pH came out to 5.01. I let it be.
Ending boil pH rang in at 4.99.



So, I think this is neat and I'm going to keep fiddling with it. I'll try doing a smaller portion of the lactic acid that I think I need from the above ratio and then remeasure and adjust if necessary.

My next brew day (maybe tonight? probably tomorrow?) is going to be a "Founders" Porter type beer. I will be keeping the mash pH at my usual for this beer (5.6), but am now curious if this is a technique that I could or should use on a porter. First pass at it said not to fiddle with it, but I pulled a sample of the actual Founders Porter and took a pH reading - it's at 4.41. Huh.

[HoosierBrew]

I'll be curious on the porter, too, Amanda. It seems like dropping the pH even after the mash could bring out the acrid character from the dark grains - but I don't know that in this case. I wonder if Founders actually adjusts pH in the kettle on this beer or if the acidity of the dark grains gets it there ? Interesting.

[AmandaK]

I'll be curious on the porter, too, Amanda. It seems like dropping the pH even after the mash could bring out the acrid character from the dark grains - but I don't know that in this case. I wonder if Founders actually adjusts pH in the kettle on this beer or if the acidity of the dark grains gets it there ? Interesting.

That's what I would think too, but if the actual Founders Porter (which is the exact opposite of acrid or harsh) is at an ending pH of 4.41, what then?

This may be one that I let ride throughout fermentation and then blend/acidify in the glass.

[klickitat jim]

Interesting stuff Amanda. Thanks for posting. Maybe over time we'll find some more rhyme and reason. For now all I know is that it depends on the beer. If it seems dull, lowering seems to brighten it. If it seems sharp, raising seems to round it.

[HoosierBrew]

I'll be curious on the porter, too, Amanda. It seems like dropping the pH even after the mash could bring out the acrid character from the dark grains - but I don't know that in this case. I wonder if Founders actually adjusts pH in the kettle on this beer or if the acidity of the dark grains gets it there ? Interesting.

That's what I would think too, but if the actual Founders Porter (which is the exact opposite of acrid or harsh) is at an ending pH of 4.41, what then?

This may be one that I let ride throughout fermentation and then blend/acidify in the glass.

Yeah, it's definitely not acrid. Great beer.  I've adjusted porter and stout in the glass with baking soda and loved the improved character, so it seems that adjusting the kettle downward could be a negative on those. But there must be more at work here if that's indeed what Founders does.

[AmandaK]

Interesting stuff Amanda. Thanks for posting. Maybe over time we'll find some more rhyme and reason. For now all I know is that it depends on the beer. If it seems dull, lowering seems to brighten it. If it seems sharp, raising seems to round it.

Indeed. I think I may mess with the beers I have on tap and see what's going on with them. I have a couple of Kolschs and a Festbier (that I never really liked) and can report on my fiddling.

[klickitat jim]

I'm not convinced that kettle adjustments are all that necessary for many styles, maybe any styles. And I don't know how post boil ph actually effects final beer ph, because the yeast will adjust the ph to what they want, if they can. I understand the idea of helping get the ph to where they want it, but not all ideas pan out. I do know that on occasion an adjustment of the final beer can greatly improve it. So if one repeatedly brewed a beer that was so so at, for instance, 4.4, but awesome at 4.3, it may be worth exploring what would get the beer to hit 4.3 on its own. That might be a whole slew of things...

[narcout]

I wonder if Founders actually adjusts pH in the kettle on this beer or if the acidity of the dark grains gets it there ? Interesting.

The yeast probably drops it quite a bit during fermentation.

[toby]

I wonder if Founders actually adjusts pH in the kettle on this beer or if the acidity of the dark grains gets it there ? Interesting.

The yeast probably drops it quite a bit during fermentation.

I don't think that's a probably. 

[HoosierBrew]

I wonder if Founders actually adjusts pH in the kettle on this beer or if the acidity of the dark grains gets it there ? Interesting.

The yeast probably drops it quite a bit during fermentation.

I don't think that's a probably. 

Yeah, there is that. Overlooked the obvious (yeast) as a big contributor.

[AmandaK]

I'm not convinced that kettle adjustments are all that necessary for many styles, maybe any styles. And I don't know how post boil ph actually effects final beer ph, because the yeast will adjust the ph to what they want, if they can. I understand the idea of helping get the ph to where they want it, but not all ideas pan out. I do know that on occasion an adjustment of the final beer can greatly improve it. So if one repeatedly brewed a beer that was so so at, for instance, 4.4, but awesome at 4.3, it may be worth exploring what would get the beer to hit 4.3 on its own. That might be a whole slew of things...

They may not be, especially for a style like porter. But I'm certainly going to tinker with it in the glass! 

I'm going to really start tracking pH throughout the process, just like I have started tracking the SG throughout the entire mash process to see what happens during the mash and at what temperatures... but that's for another thread. I'll keep these posts to pH related shenanigans.

[HoosierBrew]

I have a stout on tap now, and I may try adjusting down with a little acid in the glass. I've adjusted upward with baking soda before with very noticeable results for the better. I'm betting this will be pretty noticeable, too.

[Wort-H.O.G.]

I have a stout on tap now, and I may try adjusting down with a little acid in the glass. I've adjusted upward with baking soda before with very noticeable results for the better. I'm betting this will be pretty noticeable, too.

Guinness is 4.3PH. roast is smooth-likely as they manage the mash ph with pale malts and roast separately. finished is acidic beer but nonetheless smooth.

[HoosierBrew]

I have a stout on tap now, and I may try adjusting down with a little acid in the glass. I've adjusted upward with baking soda before with very noticeable results for the better. I'm betting this will be pretty noticeable, too.

Guinness is 4.3PH. roast is smooth-likely as they manage the mash ph with pale malts and roast separately. finished is acidic beer but nonetheless smooth.

I agree on Guinness. Just trying to get my head around somebody (if they do it) lowering kettle pH on a dark beer. Seems counterintuitive to what has made my dark beers better. I think Guinness steeps their roast malt separately from the pale mash, giving them a lower pH than many dark beers. Who knows, maybe lowering pH after the fact doesn't have the same effect as mashing dark beer too low. I think I'm most interested in lowering kettle pH on pale lagers, which we all want crisp and drinkable. New territory for me.