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Author Topic: New German Only(Brewing) site and forum  (Read 85137 times)

narvin

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Re: New German Only(Brewing) site and forum
« Reply #360 on: April 29, 2016, 11:32:20 am »
Shouldn't whether or not the process works be the only thing that matters?  What is the relevance of another brewer's opinion or how commercial breweries operate?

This should be tested the same way as everything else - brew the beer (following the instructions exactly as written with no shortcuts or substitutions) and set up a blind triangle test.


Yeah, I agree, which is why we're giving the authors grief for not doing that. 

Offline wobdee

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Re: New German Only(Brewing) site and forum
« Reply #361 on: April 29, 2016, 11:39:59 am »
So, Marshall, Annie and I have been talking about ways to test the theory.  As part of that, Annie contacted a real, award winning German brewer...imagine that!  We're waiting for permission to release his name and the full text he sent us, but I can tell you it included frequent use of the phrase BS and concluded "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing".  He made it clear that's NOT what happens in German breweries.

edited to add NOT.....
German breweries probably aren't using sulfites, may be against the law? You should ask him if they use other methods to degas. It's just easier and less expensive for homebrewers to cheat by using sulfites.

Offline denny

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Re: New German Only(Brewing) site and forum
« Reply #362 on: April 29, 2016, 11:43:31 am »
So, Marshall, Annie and I have been talking about ways to test the theory.  As part of that, Annie contacted a real, award winning German brewer...imagine that!  We're waiting for permission to release his name and the full text he sent us, but I can tell you it included frequent use of the phrase BS and concluded "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing".  He made it clear that's NOT what happens in German breweries.

edited to add NOT.....
German breweries probably aren't using sulfites, may be against the law? You should ask him if they use other methods to degas. It's just easier and less expensive for homebrewers to cheat by using sulfites.

That's true.  Unfortunately there are downsides to using that level of sulfite.
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Offline wobdee

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Re: New German Only(Brewing) site and forum
« Reply #363 on: April 29, 2016, 11:52:23 am »
What downsides?

Offline denny

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Re: New German Only(Brewing) site and forum
« Reply #364 on: April 29, 2016, 11:59:43 am »
What downsides?

Heavy sodium load effecting flavor, negative effects on yeast metabolism
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Offline Pinto

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Re: New German Only(Brewing) site and forum
« Reply #365 on: April 29, 2016, 12:05:54 pm »
I've seen the heavy sodium load being mentioned a few times.  I don't get it.  The sodium metabisuflite dosage in the document states that it will impart 24ppm sodium.   How is that heavy?

Offline denny

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Re: New German Only(Brewing) site and forum
« Reply #366 on: April 29, 2016, 12:12:23 pm »
I've seen the heavy sodium load being mentioned a few times.  I don't get it.  The sodium metabisuflite dosage in the document states that it will impart 24ppm sodium.   How is that heavy?

Maybe I read it wrong.  I thought it was 24ppm/liter.
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Offline Pinto

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Re: New German Only(Brewing) site and forum
« Reply #367 on: April 29, 2016, 12:16:35 pm »
true, they said add 100mg/l of SMB which will give you 24ppm.  But, if I had 10L of water and added 10 * 100mg, I'd still have 24ppm.  More sodium in total but still the same concentration.  At least that's how I remember chemistry 30 years later.


Offline wobdee

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Re: New German Only(Brewing) site and forum
« Reply #368 on: April 29, 2016, 12:17:06 pm »
It's 24ppm total

Offline mabrungard

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Re: New German Only(Brewing) site and forum
« Reply #369 on: April 29, 2016, 12:34:22 pm »
Sulfite in wine is relatively permanent. However, when sulfite is added to wort before the boil, there is a substantial opportunity for that sulfite to be volatilized out of the wort as sulfur dioxide during the boil. That is a reason why we don't see much mention of sulfite in beer...other than we brewers don't typically employ it in brewing! 

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Offline blair.streit

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Re: New German Only(Brewing) site and forum
« Reply #370 on: April 29, 2016, 12:35:26 pm »
This should be tested the same way as everything else - brew the beer (following the instructions exactly as written with no shortcuts or substitutions) and set up a blind triangle test.
I like the blind triangle test for any significant brewing hypothesis because I think it answers the most important question -- "can a group of people taste the difference with better accuracy than random chance"?

However, I feel there is a second question that is often not given enough attention -- "does it make a difference in terms of objective measurements"? Sensory evaluation is certainly king, but if that's all that mattered then we would simply package our beer when it tasted right and would have no need for a hydrometer. We use devices like thermometers and hydrometers because we can get consistent, repeatable results within a known range of error.

Speaking more generally than just the topic at hand, I feel most confident in any practice when I can take sensory and objective measurements and I see that the evidence points in the same direction.

For example, if I forget to add acid to my mash, I will measure a higher mash pH and a higher extract yield at the end of the mash. I can add some water to fix the yield, and the rest of the process will helpfully erase most of the measurable evidence of the pH issue. However, the sensory analysis at the end tells the final story. I will end up with a beer that tastes "sharp" and with a "harsh bitterness". By adding acid to lower my mash pH, I can measure changes in both pH and extract efficiency, and then confirm that the tasting results are in agreement.

To test the hypothesis presented in the paper, one would just need to measure and record DO readings at various stages of the process and report that data with the sensory results. The control batch could be any process you want to compare, but opting for the "roughest practical wort handling" would probably give a decent comparison (I don't know anybody that aerates their mash using an O2 wand, though that could be fun).

Now that I've written all of this I just had an interesting thought. Maybe the authors of the paper wanted to engage Marshall and Denny in a "peer review". Maybe even get some IGOR's or Brulosophy to run an experiment on this topic. Maybe they never really did any of this testing....

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: New German Only(Brewing) site and forum
« Reply #371 on: April 29, 2016, 12:47:55 pm »
So, Marshall, Annie and I have been talking about ways to test the theory.  As part of that, Annie contacted a real, award winning German brewer...imagine that!  We're waiting for permission to release his name and the full text he sent us, but I can tell you it included frequent use of the phrase BS and concluded "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing".  He made it clear that's NOT what happens in German breweries.

edited to add NOT.....

man that's good stuff...cant wait Denny!
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Offline brewinhard

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Re: New German Only(Brewing) site and forum
« Reply #372 on: April 29, 2016, 12:52:15 pm »
What would they say if they found out that some US breweries mash with DO water?

I've heard of DI water, RO water, Distilled water, Mineral Water, Rain Water, Tap Water but never DO water.

What is DO water?  Water which has oxygen purposefully dissolved into it?


Opposite- water with the O2 purposely removed. Per the German beer guys' paper.
So boil water, remove o2, don't splash the mash or the wort at all, don't use copper, and don't aerate wort before pitching yeast???.

Oh boy!

All of those except aerating the wort prior to pitching. That is necessary for yeast health and fermentation just like before.  IIRC, they did mention to properly aerate the wort to allow the yeast to reproduce.

Offline zwiller

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Re: New German Only(Brewing) site and forum
« Reply #373 on: April 29, 2016, 01:11:22 pm »
Sulfite in wine is relatively permanent. However, when sulfite is added to wort before the boil, there is a substantial opportunity for that sulfite to be volatilized out of the wort as sulfur dioxide during the boil. That is a reason why we don't see much mention of sulfite in beer...other than we brewers don't typically employ it in brewing! 

Thanks Martin!  Was a little worried about this. 
Sam
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Offline narcout

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Re: New German Only(Brewing) site and forum
« Reply #374 on: April 29, 2016, 01:20:49 pm »
The paper advocates pitching yeast first and then oxygenated/aerating to a target of 8ppm DO.
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