[RPIScotty]

Wyeast says 8g per bbl mash and 5g per bbl boil. Thats a pretty tiny amount for 5 gallons...

About .19 g/gal and .12 g/gal respectively.

Just go with 1/4 tsp. in the strike water and 1/2 tsp. in a slurry 15 min. from the end of boil.

For a 5 gallon batch?

I do much smaller batches so I may actually have to measure small gram amounts.

[zwiller]

Very interesting stuff. Looking forward to the results of your blind triangle test, Denny.

I like the idea of a scavenging additive but am just curious to see what effects it will have on pH (if any).

I asked AJ Delange and he was of the opinion that tannic acid would not have much effect on pH. 

[narcout]

The spec sheet I have says that in the mash it "increases the antioxidant power, inhibits LOX-enzymes, reduces the formation of aldehydes and is a very good metal chelating agent."

I wonder how it compares to SMB in both type and degree of protection.  There is a lot of room for future experimentation. 

[dilluh98]

Very interesting stuff. Looking forward to the results of your blind triangle test, Denny.

I like the idea of a scavenging additive but am just curious to see what effects it will have on pH (if any).

I asked AJ Delange and he was of the opinion that tannic acid would not have much effect on pH.

Agreed, with a pKa of 10, tannic acid is quite weak. For reference, lactic acid has a pKa of ~1 and citric acid has a pKa of 3.1. A low pKa represents a strong acid with the really strong acids actually having negative pKa values (nitric acid is pKa = -1.4, HCl pKa = -4.1). Remember that the 'p' scale, whether talking pKa, pKb or pH is logarithmic. That's an enormous difference between tannic vs common acids used to manipulate pH in brewing.

[HoosierBrew]

Very interesting stuff. Looking forward to the results of your blind triangle test, Denny.

I like the idea of a scavenging additive but am just curious to see what effects it will have on pH (if any).

I asked AJ Delange and he was of the opinion that tannic acid would not have much effect on pH.

Agreed, with a pKa of 10, tannic acid is quite weak. For reference, lactic acid has a pKa of ~1 and citric acid has a pKa of 3.1. A low pKa represents a strong acid with the really strong acids actually having negative pKa values (nitric acid is pKa = -1.4, HCl pKa = -4.1). Remember that the 'p' scale, whether talking pKa, pKb or pH is logarithmic. That's an enormous difference between tannic vs common acids used to manipulate pH in brewing.

Sounds like the impact to pH (from tannic acid) is pretty negligible. Thanks for posting.

[RPIScotty]

Very interesting stuff. Looking forward to the results of your blind triangle test, Denny.

I like the idea of a scavenging additive but am just curious to see what effects it will have on pH (if any).

I asked AJ Delange and he was of the opinion that tannic acid would not have much effect on pH.

Agreed, with a pKa of 10, tannic acid is quite weak. For reference, lactic acid has a pKa of ~1 and citric acid has a pKa of 3.1. A low pKa represents a strong acid with the really strong acids actually having negative pKa values (nitric acid is pKa = -1.4, HCl pKa = -4.1). Remember that the 'p' scale, whether talking pKa, pKb or pH is logarithmic. That's an enormous difference between tannic vs common acids used to manipulate pH in brewing.

Sounds like the impact to pH (from tannic acid) is pretty negligible. Thanks for posting.

Yes. Thanks for posting.

[denny]

Very interesting stuff. Looking forward to the results of your blind triangle test, Denny.

I like the idea of a scavenging additive but am just curious to see what effects it will have on pH (if any).

I asked AJ Delange and he was of the opinion that tannic acid would not have much effect on pH.

Agreed, with a pKa of 10, tannic acid is quite weak. For reference, lactic acid has a pKa of ~1 and citric acid has a pKa of 3.1. A low pKa represents a strong acid with the really strong acids actually having negative pKa values (nitric acid is pKa = -1.4, HCl pKa = -4.1). Remember that the 'p' scale, whether talking pKa, pKb or pH is logarithmic. That's an enormous difference between tannic vs common acids used to manipulate pH in brewing.

FWIW, the company lists the pH of Brewtan B as 4.

[denny]

For a 5 gallon batch?

I do much smaller batches so I may actually have to measure small gram amounts.

Yep, for a 5 gal. batch.

[denny]

The spec sheet I have says that in the mash it "increases the antioxidant power, inhibits LOX-enzymes, reduces the formation of aldehydes and is a very good metal chelating agent."

I wonder how it compares to SMB in both type and degree of protection.  There is a lot of room for future experimentation.

As to type, I believe that SMB reacts with O2 to in effect remove it, while Brewtan prevents oxidizing reactions from happening.  I think.

[RPIScotty]

In essence, the Low O2 method requires you limit O2 at all stages and scavenge any introduced oxygen with SMB. Using Brewtan B could, theoretically, eliminate the stringent process techniques by eliminating the ability of O2 to have negative effects. Sound about right?

Yep, in theory. The fact that breweries (including macros) use the tannic acid says alot, as they wouldn't waste extra profits on it if it weren't deemed effective (and cost effective). How that translates to us has me pretty intrigued.

[dilluh98]

FWIW, the company lists the pH of Brewtan B as 4.

At what concentration?

pH = -log[H+]

The concentration of protons, [H+], is what dictates pH, not the molecule itself.

[stpug]

The spec sheet I have says that in the mash it "increases the antioxidant power, inhibits LOX-enzymes, reduces the formation of aldehydes and is a very good metal chelating agent."

I wonder how it compares to SMB in both type and degree of protection.  There is a lot of room for future experimentation.

As to type, I believe that SMB reacts with O2 to in effect remove it, while Brewtan prevents oxidizing reactions from happening.  I think.

So to summarize the thought so far, SMB serves to prevent the O2 from having adverse effects on the malt by removing it chemically, while Brewtan B serves not to exclude the O2 but prevent it from oxidizing the malt.

SMB = O2 is there and we want to limit its presence and get rid of it during the other times where O2 is introduced.

Brewtan B = We don't care that O2 is present during the process because we are inhibiting it's ability to react and oxidize the malts.

In essence, the Low O2 method requires you limit O2 at all stages and scavenge any introduced oxygen with SMB. Using Brewtan B could, theoretically, eliminate the stringent process techniques by eliminating the ability of O2 to have negative effects. Sound about right?

That's how I'm reading it based on this thread and available literature.

[denny]

So to summarize the thought so far, SMB serves to prevent the O2 from having adverse effects on the malt by removing it chemically, while Brewtan B serves not to exclude the O2 but prevent it from oxidizing the malt.

SMB = O2 is there and we want to limit its presence and get rid of it during the other times where O2 is introduced.

Brewtan B = We don't care that O2 is present during the process because we are inhibiting it's ability to react and oxidize the malts.

In essence, the Low O2 method requires you limit O2 at all stages and scavenge any introduced oxygen with SMB. Using Brewtan B could, theoretically, eliminate the stringent process techniques by eliminating the ability of O2 to have negative effects. Sound about right?

That's my understanding.  I intend to talk to Joe more about it and we'll have him on the show to discuss it.

[denny]

FWIW, the company lists the pH of Brewtan B as 4.

At what concentration?

pH = -log[H+]

The concentration of protons, [H+], is what dictates pH, not the molecule itself.

Spec says "1% in water".  http://www.natural-specialities.com/PDF/Data-sheets/Brewtan%20B%20%20-%20Datasheet%20v1.0.pdf

[majorvices]

For the record I used Brewtan B for about 6 months and stopped using it because I really wasn't sure it was doing anything.

Also, my understanding is that Brewtan B helps facilitate the removal of lipids which are extremely susceptible to oxidation.