Author Topic: Correct Category for a Kottbusser  (Read 664 times)

Offline kkessen

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Correct Category for a Kottbusser
« on: October 15, 2015, 01:17:53 PM »
Hello all,

I'm submitting a Kottbusser for AHA competition and have been trying to determine which Category the beer is best placed in.    Could you please advice.   

Thanks

Offline goschman

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3448
    • View Profile
Re: Correct Category for a Kottbusser
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2015, 01:27:29 PM »
This is a style that I am very interested in after having one commercial example. I would think this would need to go into the specialty category. Which guidelines are being used?
On Tap/Bottled: Haze for Daze IPA, G Pils, Maibock, Kolsch, Summer Gold       

Fermenting: 
Up Next: Euro Pale, IPA

Online dmtaylor

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3263
  • Two Rivers, WI
    • View Profile
Re: Correct Category for a Kottbusser
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2015, 01:44:43 PM »
Kottbusser is a sour German style much like an Imperial Berliner weisse, yes?  You could just enter as a Berliner weisse, maybe the judges won't notice the extra flavor and alcohol and/or you just might win the category as a result of that anyway.
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline goschman

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3448
    • View Profile
Re: Correct Category for a Kottbusser
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2015, 01:52:15 PM »
Kottbusser is a sour German style much like an Imperial Berliner weisse, yes?  You could just enter as a Berliner weisse, maybe the judges won't notice the extra flavor and alcohol and/or you just might win the category as a result of that anyway.

It's basically a strong wheat beer with some honey, molasses, and oats.

From the site of the brewery which makes the one I have had, the label says honey wheat ale and is 7.1% ABV.

"Once upon a time German beer was only deemed pure if it contained the four orthodox ingredients of brewing: water, barley, hops, and yeast. During this time, an ale known as Köttbusser was outlawed because it contained oats, honey, and molasses. Over the centuries since its prohibition, Köttbusser became a lost brewing style. At Grimm Brothers, we’ve resurrected this refreshing ale with a kiss of hops. You don’t need a magic mirror to know that Snowdrop is the fairest in the land. Recommended by dwarves everywhere!"
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 01:58:56 PM by goschman »
On Tap/Bottled: Haze for Daze IPA, G Pils, Maibock, Kolsch, Summer Gold       

Fermenting: 
Up Next: Euro Pale, IPA

Offline kkessen

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Correct Category for a Kottbusser
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2015, 03:50:09 PM »
Thanks for the input. It's a fabulous beer to brew and serve.   It requires some cold conditioning but it's worth the extra wait.    All input above are true and could fall within those categories.    The categories for this competition i believe are the standard AHA categories.   The kicker that I keep stumbling on is that it's fermented with a Kolsch yeast.   Does that therefore make it a kolsch?

Offline goschman

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3448
    • View Profile
Re: Correct Category for a Kottbusser
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2015, 03:52:38 PM »
Thanks for the input. It's a fabulous beer to brew and serve.   It requires some cold conditioning but it's worth the extra wait.    All input above are true and could fall within those categories.    The categories for this competition i believe are the standard AHA categories.   The kicker that I keep stumbling on is that it's fermented with a Kolsch yeast.   Does that therefore make it a kolsch?

I have been wanting to brew one for a while. What is the recipe and the stats? That will be most helpful at this point. Like others will note if it tastes like a kolsch, enter it as a kolsch.

I think if you enter it as a specialty you can just note that it is a Kottbusser and be done with it if it doesn't fit well into another category.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 03:54:28 PM by goschman »
On Tap/Bottled: Haze for Daze IPA, G Pils, Maibock, Kolsch, Summer Gold       

Fermenting: 
Up Next: Euro Pale, IPA

Offline kkessen

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Correct Category for a Kottbusser
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2015, 04:03:47 PM »
It's a Honey Kolsch.   Thanks for the advice.   I'll let you know the judges feedback. 

Calculated & Measured Statistics
Measured O.G.   1.060 (68% Actual Efficiency)
Measured F.G.   1.012 (80% Actual Attenuation)
ABV   6.5%
IBU   26.9
SRM   4.7°L

Malt Bill
Malt Name   Weight   PPG   SRM   Type
Pilsen - 1.7°L   16.00 lbs   1.036   
Wheat Malt, White - 3°L   8.00 lbs   
Flaked Oatmeal– 1°L   2.00 lbs   
Honey, Wildflower - 4°L   0.50 lbs
Molasses, Mild Flavor - 80°L   0.05 lbs   

Mash Rest Profile
Rest   Temperature   Time   Type   Details
Mash in   144°F   30 min   Initial Strike   Mash-in with 32.0 qts of water at 164°F
Saccharification (Medium Body)   152°F   60 min   
Mash Out   168°F   10 min   
Batch Sparge with 1 batches of 10.90 qts water at 170°F

Hop Bill
Hop Name   Time Added   Weight   AA%   Type
Columbus   60 min   0.75 oz   15.4%   Pellet Hop
Hallertauer Mittelfruh   60 min   2.00 oz   3.0%   Pellet Hop
Saaz (Czech)   5 min   2.00 oz   3.0%   Pellet Hop

Yeast Details
Yeast Strain   Quantity   Attenuation   Flocculation
WLP029 White Labs German Ale / Kolsch   2 vials   

Online dmtaylor

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3263
  • Two Rivers, WI
    • View Profile
Re: Correct Category for a Kottbusser
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2015, 04:35:41 PM »
Hmm.  Either Ron Pattinson's assertion that Kottbusser was a sour beer is a little off, or else the revival of this style does not require that it is soured.  In my thinking, this probably really was a Lacto soured beer and predecessor of Berliner weisse.  Since it's all ancient history, I suppose the style today is whatever we imagine it to be.  For the above recipe, it's really somewhat of an imperial Kolsch.  If you're not afraid of Lacto, I would suggest adding some to at least a portion of the batch, to see how that turns out.
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline goschman

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3448
    • View Profile
Re: Correct Category for a Kottbusser
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2015, 04:43:17 PM »
That recipe looks how I would imagine it...delicious
On Tap/Bottled: Haze for Daze IPA, G Pils, Maibock, Kolsch, Summer Gold       

Fermenting: 
Up Next: Euro Pale, IPA

Offline kkessen

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Correct Category for a Kottbusser
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2015, 05:09:52 PM »
In the reading i've done I've not seen it referred to as a "sour".  Kotbusser is discussed in the Nov/Dec 2014 of Zymurgy.   They provide a recipe for the Grimm Bros.   The article provides good insights to the original and beer profile.   After discussions I'm going to submit this as a Kolsch and see what happens from there.   Cheers!

Offline goschman

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3448
    • View Profile
Re: Correct Category for a Kottbusser
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2015, 05:17:08 PM »
In the reading i've done I've not seen it referred to as a "sour".  Kotbusser is discussed in the Nov/Dec 2014 of Zymurgy.   They provide a recipe for the Grimm Bros.   The article provides good insights to the original and beer profile.   After discussions I'm going to submit this as a Kolsch and see what happens from there.   Cheers!

Grimm Bros is the example I have tried. FWIW, the won bronze at 2015 GABF for that beer in the 'historical' category.
On Tap/Bottled: Haze for Daze IPA, G Pils, Maibock, Kolsch, Summer Gold       

Fermenting: 
Up Next: Euro Pale, IPA

Online dmtaylor

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3263
  • Two Rivers, WI
    • View Profile
Re: Correct Category for a Kottbusser
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2015, 06:25:34 PM »
In the reading i've done I've not seen it referred to as a "sour".  Kotbusser is discussed in the Nov/Dec 2014 of Zymurgy.   They provide a recipe for the Grimm Bros.   The article provides good insights to the original and beer profile.   After discussions I'm going to submit this as a Kolsch and see what happens from there.   Cheers!

It is not clear to me whether or not the style was sour, but I imagine it might have been.  Ron Pattinson presents the idea that Kottbusser was a sour style in his Vintage Beer book (excellent book!).  He gets all his information from actual historical research, not hearsay.  He found an actual recipe and translated from German.  At his blog he states:

"The proportion of the grains was 60% barley, 32% wheat and 8% oats.  I got the OG to around 1090 with my calculation, which seems very high... The hopping rate is very low.  The brew was about 14 imperial barrels. Six pounds of hops gives a hopping rate of just 0.43 lbs to the barrel.  Not sure what effect the small amount of honey and sugar would have.  It seems way too little to me to be worth the trouble."

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/07/kotbusser-bier-recipe.html

And here's some more pages and recipe ideas for the sour version of the style:

http://appliedzymurgy.com/2014/12/27/kottbusser-recipe/

https://untappd.com/b/main-street-brewing-company-kottbusser/1210863/photos

http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/main-street-kottbusser/355948/

http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/176732/10-gallon-kottbusser
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline narcout

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1755
  • Los Angeles, CA
    • View Profile
Re: Correct Category for a Kottbusser
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2015, 10:30:51 PM »
I brewed the Kotbusser recipe in Radical Brewing.  While tasty, it was nothing like a Kolsch.
It's too close to home
And it's too near the bone

Offline goschman

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3448
    • View Profile
Re: Correct Category for a Kottbusser
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2015, 02:29:33 AM »
I brewed the Kotbusser recipe in Radical Brewing.  While tasty, it was nothing like a Kolsch.
I remember seeing that recipe and used it as a guideline for my own which I have not brewed. What yeast is it? 1007?
On Tap/Bottled: Haze for Daze IPA, G Pils, Maibock, Kolsch, Summer Gold       

Fermenting: 
Up Next: Euro Pale, IPA

Offline narcout

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1755
  • Los Angeles, CA
    • View Profile
Re: Correct Category for a Kottbusser
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2015, 07:18:43 PM »
Yes, I used 1007.
It's too close to home
And it's too near the bone