Author Topic: Wort Aeration - Pt. 3: Nothing vs. Pure Oxygen | exBEERiment Results!  (Read 12856 times)

S. cerevisiae

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Re: Wort Aeration - Pt. 3: Nothing vs. Pure Oxygen | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2015, 08:53:52 am »
Yeah, I always thought S-04 was WY1099. Don't remember where I learned that but maybe it was wrong.

No, it is definitely Whitbread B. Wyeast 1098 is Whitbread B.  Whitbread B is the most popular ale yeast strain in the world due to the fact that it is effectively a bottom fermenting ale yeast (i.e., why bottom fermenting and top fermenting are not good descriptions for lager and ale yeast strains). 


As an aside, I do not know where Wyeast 1099 was originally obtained, but there are a lot of Whitbread strains.  Whitbread maintained its own culture collection.  NCYC 234, NCYC 235, NCYC 236, NCYC 238, NCYC 239, NCYC 240, NCYC 241, NCYC 242, NCYC 352, NCYC 353, and NCYC 1026 are all strains from the Whitbread collection.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 07:28:37 am by S. cerevisiae »

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Wort Aeration - Pt. 3: Nothing vs. Pure Oxygen | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2015, 09:15:20 am »
Yeah, I always thought S-04 was WY1099. Don't remember where I learned that but maybe it was wrong.

No, it is definitely Whitbread B. Wyeast 1098 is Whitbread B.  Whitbread B is the most popular ale yeast strain in the world due to the fact that it is effectively a bottom fermenting ale yeast (i.e., why bottom fermenting and top fermenting are not good descriptions for lager and ale yeast strains). 


As an aside, I do not know where Wyeast 1099 was originally pbtained, but there are a lot of Whitbread strains.  Whitbread maintained its own culture collection.  NCYC 234, NCYC 235, NCYC 236, NCYC 238, NCYC 239, NCYC 240, NCYC 241, NCYC 242, NCYC 352, NCYC 353, and NCYC 1026 are all strains from the Whitbread collection.
Somewhere in his blog Ron Pattinson said that they had an unusual amount of strains they used for different beers. 
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« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 09:34:43 am by dmtaylor »
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Offline dilluh98

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Re: Wort Aeration - Pt. 3: Nothing vs. Pure Oxygen | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2015, 09:33:10 am »
Whitbread B is the most popular ale yeast strain in the world due to the fact that it is effectively a bottom fermenting ale yeast (i.e., why bottom fermenting and top fermenting are not good descriptions for lager and ale yeast strains).

Huh... that's interesting. Is that why the krausen on a beer fermented with WLP007 looks so much different than most ale strains I've brewed with, i.e., not the thick, creamy type but instead a really airy, bubbly almost translucent krausen?

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Re: Wort Aeration - Pt. 3: Nothing vs. Pure Oxygen | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2015, 10:27:55 am »
I've heard one could oxygenate with olive oil.





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Re: Wort Aeration - Pt. 3: Nothing vs. Pure Oxygen | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2015, 10:35:05 am »
A stir plate does not aerate a culture.  About all it does is keep the medium homogeneous and degas the culture.

Then why does an open stirred starter produce more biomass than an airlocked stirred starter?
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Offline charles1968

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Re: Wort Aeration - Pt. 3: Nothing vs. Pure Oxygen | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2015, 01:57:10 pm »
The practice of a spinning a culture until it sediments results in low ergosterol and UFA reserves.

Have you got a source to back that up? Low relative to what?

A stir plate does not aerate a culture...Little to no O2 enters the fermentation after the culture starts to outgas because the culture is under positive pressure.

This is wrong. CO2 might not enter the solution when it's outgassing CO2, but the amount of oxygen the solution can hold depend on the partial pressure of oxygen and the quantity of oxygen already present - not the quantity of carbon dioxide. They two gases don't displace each other, they form their own equilibrium independently.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 02:37:35 pm by charles1968 »

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Re: Wort Aeration - Pt. 3: Nothing vs. Pure Oxygen | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2015, 05:07:15 pm »

Yeah, I always thought S-04 was WY1099. Don't remember where I learned that but maybe it was wrong.

No, it is definitely Whitbread B. Wyeast 1098 is Whitbread B.  Whitbread B is the most popular ale yeast strain in the world due to the fact that it is effectively a bottom fermenting ale yeast (i.e., why bottom fermenting and top fermenting are not good descriptions for lager and ale yeast strains). 

So, S-04 = WLP007? I did a split batch side by side a few years ago, the beers were different... though this was before my mind was totally f##ked by the xBmt stuff.

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Wort Aeration - Pt. 3: Nothing vs. Pure Oxygen | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2015, 05:10:40 pm »

Yeah, I always thought S-04 was WY1099. Don't remember where I learned that but maybe it was wrong.

No, it is definitely Whitbread B. Wyeast 1098 is Whitbread B.  Whitbread B is the most popular ale yeast strain in the world due to the fact that it is effectively a bottom fermenting ale yeast (i.e., why bottom fermenting and top fermenting are not good descriptions for lager and ale yeast strains). 

So, S-04 = WLP007? I did a split batch side by side a few years ago, the beers were different... though this was before my mind was totally f##ked by the xBmt stuff.

And I will bet your statistical triangle test couldn't tell the difference though.... ;) 

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Re: Wort Aeration - Pt. 3: Nothing vs. Pure Oxygen | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2015, 05:13:54 pm »


Yeah, I always thought S-04 was WY1099. Don't remember where I learned that but maybe it was wrong.

No, it is definitely Whitbread B. Wyeast 1098 is Whitbread B.  Whitbread B is the most popular ale yeast strain in the world due to the fact that it is effectively a bottom fermenting ale yeast (i.e., why bottom fermenting and top fermenting are not good descriptions for lager and ale yeast strains). 

So, S-04 = WLP007? I did a split batch side by side a few years ago, the beers were different... though this was before my mind was totally f##ked by the xBmt stuff.

And I will bet your statistical triangle test couldn't tell the difference though.... ;)

I hate to say you're likely right. Gonna have to do that one soon.

S. cerevisiae

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Re: Wort Aeration - Pt. 3: Nothing vs. Pure Oxygen | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2015, 08:35:07 am »
A stir plate does not aerate a culture.  About all it does is keep the medium homogeneous and degas the culture.

Then why does an open stirred starter produce more biomass than an airlocked stirred starter?

The biomass increase had nothing to do with stirring.  Both cultures were stirred.  An open culture has more gas exchange and less top pressure than a closed culture.  The same dynamic happens in open fermentation, which is why open fermentation is usually used with cultures with high O2 demands (although, some strains have such high O2 demands that post-inoculation aeration is required). A culture that is spun fast enough to create a vortex has more surface area than a gently stirred culture, but it does so by creating more turbulence; hence, the cells experience more shear stress. 


A Fishtail Aerating a Fermentation Post-Pitching at Samuel Smith's Brewery




Here is the $10,000.00 question.  If stirring was beneficial to brewing Saccharomyces strains, why are batch fermentation vessels not equipped with impellers?   Continuous tower fermentation vessels are equipped with slow moving impellers, but they are there to continuously mix new substrate and O2 into the fermentation in order to keep the medium chemically static. 
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 11:59:53 am by S. cerevisiae »

S. cerevisiae

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Re: Wort Aeration - Pt. 3: Nothing vs. Pure Oxygen | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2015, 08:43:08 am »
Huh... that's interesting. Is that why the krausen on a beer fermented with WLP007 looks so much different than most ale strains I've brewed with, i.e., not the thick, creamy type but instead a really airy, bubbly almost translucent krausen?


If you go back to the description for NCYC 1026 that I posted earlier, you will notice that Whitbread B was selected for use in continuous towers.  A continuous tower fermentation vessel is a bioreactor for continuous process beer production. A top fermenting strain would throw a monkey wrench into the works because beer is continuously drawn off the top while substrate and O2 are added and yeast is recycled.

Continuous Tower Fermentation Vessel

« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 11:58:21 am by S. cerevisiae »

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Re: Wort Aeration - Pt. 3: Nothing vs. Pure Oxygen | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2015, 10:18:08 am »
Very cool. I love seeing those open fermentation pictures in breweries. I wonder if people need o2 masks to be in the fermentation rooms or the venting is really good, otherwise I'd think it'd be impossible to breath with all the co2 output.
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Re: Wort Aeration - Pt. 3: Nothing vs. Pure Oxygen | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2015, 11:56:51 am »
I guess I just don't understand why these statements aren't contradictory:

A stir plate does not aerate a culture.  About all it does is keep the medium homogeneous and degas the culture.
An open culture has more gas exchange and less top pressure than a closed culture.

I find it hard to believe that the mechanism is simply increasing the top pressure by ~0.2% due to an airlock.
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S. cerevisiae

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Re: Wort Aeration - Pt. 3: Nothing vs. Pure Oxygen | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2015, 12:45:31 pm »
I guess I just don't understand why these statements aren't contradictory:

A stir plate does not aerate a culture.  About all it does is keep the medium homogeneous and degas the culture.
An open culture has more gas exchange and less top pressure than a closed culture.

I find it hard to believe that the mechanism is simply increasing the top pressure by ~0.2% due to an airlock.

The comments are non contradictory.  Both stirred cultures are degassed by stirring.  It's just that the open culture experiences less restriction.   CO2 dissolves and comes out of solution based on partial pressure; therefore, any top pressure impacts the ability to degas a solution. 

Where are the large sample size peer reviewed studies that demonstrate significant O2 pickup via stirring?  From what I can ascertain, there are none.  Home brewers are blindly assuming that the results from work performed by one amateur brewer are 100% accurate and hold for all cases.  Yet, that work involved a tiny sample size.  Science is based on repeatability. 

The takeaway from this person's experiment was almost comical in that the results made others believe that stirring was the reason for the increased growth.  What stirring the culture vigorously did was increase the amount of surface area in an otherwise poor choice for a culturing vessel.  The same effect can be accomplished without stirring or shaking by using a vessel that is wide enough that the liquid level is very shallow.  The key to O2 pickup from air will always be surface area.