[S. cerevisiae]

Question about bleach and iodophor. Don't both need to air dry before use?

No

[Stevie]

Iodophor bottle lists drying in the directions. Maybe it is CYA.

[mabrungard]

I'm less concerned with iodophor solution remaining on surfaces as opposed to hypochlorite solutions (bleach). It takes only incredibly low levels of hypochlorite to taint your beer with chlorophenols. So, I strongly recommend drying bleach solutions and not worrying about iodophor solutions.

[Stevie]

Out of the bucket and into use is one of the main reasons I originally switched to starsan. I think I will get a small bottle of iodophor and use that every few months or so, but that is low priority as I haven't had an issue in the past.

[S. cerevisiae]

My guess is that they are suggesting waiting until the item dries to allow the iodine to change phases into a gas.  The stuff is used everywhere without allowing it to dry.   I sanitize, empty, allow what is left of the solution to pool in the bottom, and empty that small amount of liquid.  I am not afraid of a little iodine.  Now, 25ppm may be a different story.  The same holds for bleach and vinegar.  I believe that I calculated that leaving one tablespoon of the solution in a fermentation vessel after sanitizing would result in the beer containing 62 parts per billion decomposed sodium hypochlorite.  Very few people are in so much of a hurry that they leave that much solution behind in a fermentation vessel. 

[Stevie]

That's only half an ounce. I could see that much making it through easily. A draining,  a sitting period to pool, and a second draining should get to less than that.

[S. cerevisiae]

I'm less concerned with iodophor solution remaining on surfaces as opposed to hypochlorite solutions (bleach). It takes only incredibly low levels of hypochlorite to taint your beer with chlorophenols. So, I strongly recommend drying bleach solutions and not worrying about iodophor solutions.

The amount of decomposed sodium hypochlorite left behind with the 1oz of bleach/1oz of vinegar per 5 gallons solution is way below a threshold that it can do any damage to the beer.   The downside to waiting for an item to dry is that it provides an opportunity for house dust to come contact with the surface with nothing to render any microflora that has hitched a ride harmless.   It is better to just let the item drain completely while inverted.

[S. cerevisiae]

That's only half an ounce. I could see that much making it through easily. A draining,  a sitting period to pool, and a second draining should get to less than that.

I measured how much liquid is left in a carboy that is dumped and turned back over.  I measured a little more than one teaspoon.  One would have to be in rediculous hurry to get to one tablespoon, and 62ppb way below taste threshold, and not all of that 62 ppb is chlorine.  Bleach is manufactured by bubbling a chlorine gas through a sodium hydroxide solution.   Bleach basically breaks down into salt water.

[S. cerevisiae]

By the way, the taste threshold for chlorine is 400ppb, and the chlorine from one tablespoon of the 1oz bleach/1oz vinegar in 5 gallons of water mixed into 5 gallons of wort is actually 61ppb.

[S. cerevisiae]

The primary chlorophenol found in beer is 2,6-dichlorophenol.   According to the Aroxa site, the taste threshold for 2,6-dichlorophenol is 300ppb.

[mabrungard]

Mark, you are forgetting that we are not dealing with chlorine. We are dealing with hypochlorite and subsequent chlorophenols. The taste threshold for chlorophenols in water range between 0.1 and 2 ppb (depending upon species) according to WHO. The taste threshold for chlorophenols in beer is around 10 ppb and they are plainly apparent to virtually all tasters at 30 ppb.

Assuming that dichlorophenol is the predominant species when formed in beer (I don't know that this is true), it takes two moles of hypochlorite to produce one mole of dichlorophenol and working through the molecular weights, that means that 1 ppm hypochlorite produces about 1 ppm dichlorophenol. That 400 ppb chlorine taste threshold is probably actually expressed as hypochlorite and that likely means that what was acceptable in water is WAY above the taste threshold when reacted with beer organics to create chlorophenols (400 ppb >> 30 ppb).

I'm sure many beer drinkers have experienced the following phenomena. A bar serves a beer in a glass that was washed in a chlorine-based solution. A whiff of the empty glass might have a bleach aroma to it. However, when a beer is poured into the glass, the medicinal chlorophenolic aroma is hard for some drinkers to ignore. Unfortunately, some people have little sensitivity to chlorophenols. For example, some people find some phenolic Scotches to be pleasant and drinkable, but others find them over the top...mediciney. For that reason, some beer drinkers never realize that their beers are chlorophenolic bombs, but all their friends know it.

For that reason, be sure that all bleach-related disinfecting solution is gone from your equipment before beer or wort touch them. It takes so little to screw up your beer!

(Mark, your quote from Aroxa is off. They say 300 ng/L, which is 0.3 ppb.  I'm not sure that most tasters could detect it at that low level, but certainly they should at 10 ppb)

[Stevie]

Interesting point regarding sensitivity. A buddy was brewing beers that to me were crazy phenolic, everybody else was patting him on the back. I thought I was the crazy one.

[klickitat jim]

I'm hypersensitive to the point that occasionally I detect chlorophenols in certain darker beers that aren't roast heavy. Example would be a low hopped porter with too much carafa. I know it's not an infection because if I am distracted it's not there. But all I have to have is the slightest subliminal hint, like wondering if the glasses got rinsed well enough, and bang I smell it. I've been told that certain infections can cause a similar aroma, and I had one once, but in my experience those continue to worsen. The malt related one always seems to get better over time. In any event, when I get a real chlorophenol beer, I can smell it across the room. Same with diacetyl. My first judging ever was first round NHC 13 in Seattle. At a table with two certified judges. We got a d bomb APA and they didn't detect any. I called Steve over and he got it first whiff. Diacetyl at least isn't so disgusting as chlorophenol, which turns my stomach

By the way, after reading this thread, I just used iodophor at 12.2% and treated it like starsan. No rinse. We'll see if I can detect it in a stout and APA as soon as they carbonate and I kick a keg or two.

[brewinhard]

[quote author=klickitat jim link=topic=24725.msg316487#msg316487 date=1445628515

By the way, after reading this thread, I just used iodophor at 12.2% and treated it like starsan. No rinse. We'll see if I can detect it in a stout and APA as soon as they carbonate and I kick a keg or two.
[/quote]

Ohhhh, man.  You are totally screwed!    

[S. cerevisiae]

(Mark, your quote from Aroxa is off. They say 300 ng/L, which is 0.3 ppb.  I'm not sure that most tasters could detect it at that low level, but certainly they should at 10 ppb)

You are correct.  That being said, I am more sensitive to phenolic compounds than anyone I know.  In fact, I am so sensitive to phenols that I cannot drink German wheat beer and most phenolic Belgain styles.  I get wicked headaches when I drink phenolic beer styles, and it is not from being hungover.  However,  I have never detected phenolic compounds from sanitizing with the 1oz of bleach/1oz of vinegar per 5 gallons of water solution.  However, I do not do "drive by" (a.k.a. spray-and-go) sanitization like so many brewers do today.  I sanitize drain, allow what is left in the fermentation vessel pool, drain, and repeat until nothing drains, or I am down to a drop or two.  I also do the inverted drain thing as well, but it never seems to get everything out of a Better Bottle. 

Bleach is a highly effective sanitizer that obtained a bad reputation from the days when people used 1/2 cup of bleach per 5 gallons of water.  I have used bleach for most of the time that I have brewed.  I used to do the bleach and rinse thing when I lived in a house with a chlorinated water supply.  I would set hot my water heater to 140F on brew days.  I switched to iodophor and then to bleach and vinegar when I moved in my current home, which is on a well.
 
Lately, I have been sanitizing my fermentation vessel with steam.  Steam is the ultimate sanitizer.