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Author Topic: First Saison Attempt  (Read 3424 times)

Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: First Saison Attempt
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2015, 02:43:27 pm »
Hennepin by Ommegang
Saison Dupont by Brasserie Dupont sprl
Arthur by Hill Farmstead Brewery
Noble Rot by Dogfish Head Brewery
Saison du BUFF by Stone Brewing Co.
framboise du fermier Side Project Brewing
Nectarine Premiere de Garde Brewing

Started to doubt my own palate.  Went back and tried Arthur by Hill Farmstead Brewery, and Noble Rot by Dogfish Head,Saison Dupont by Brasserie Dupont sprl, and Saison du BUFF by stone brewing Co.  and they were exactly as I remembered.  My wife and I both feel these beers have a chewy, bread like, impression on the finish before the crisp alcohol rounds off the beer.  The personal favorite in the house is Saison Dupont by Brasserie for having a banana bread chewy sweetness with a chardonnay alcohol quality.  Even smells of chewy high quality bread.

That's interesting that you perceive those beers that way. I don't have that experience but it doesn't mean your perception is wrong or inferior. I know Saison Dupont Vieille and Hennepin do not include special b and I strongly doubt any of the other beers you mention include that malt so you must identify something else in the beer as producing that character.
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: First Saison Attempt
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2015, 04:19:37 pm »
Hennepin by Ommegang
Saison Dupont by Brasserie Dupont sprl
Arthur by Hill Farmstead Brewery
Noble Rot by Dogfish Head Brewery
Saison du BUFF by Stone Brewing Co.
framboise du fermier Side Project Brewing
Nectarine Premiere de Garde Brewing

Started to doubt my own palate.  Went back and tried Arthur by Hill Farmstead Brewery, and Noble Rot by Dogfish Head,Saison Dupont by Brasserie Dupont sprl, and Saison du BUFF by stone brewing Co.  and they were exactly as I remembered.  My wife and I both feel these beers have a chewy, bread like, impression on the finish before the crisp alcohol rounds off the beer.  The personal favorite in the house is Saison Dupont by Brasserie for having a banana bread chewy sweetness with a chardonnay alcohol quality.  Even smells of chewy high quality bread.

are you talking about mouthfeel or flavor? lots of saisons will have a wheaty bready flavor because they often include some wheat or other raw grain adjuncts. And as others have mentioned, saison yeast tend to produce a creaminess especially combined with the high carbonation.
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: First Saison Attempt
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2015, 04:33:17 pm »
That was my thought. It might be he perceives it differently, or more likely its just a different use of terminology. Chewy or coating makes me think big barley wine character. Different from the creamy foaminess of a effervescent dry beer. Kind of like tge difference between an lightly sweetened mirengue,  vs whip creme.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: First Saison Attempt
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2015, 04:48:24 pm »
I agree probably it's a terminology issue. A 'chewy' beer to me is an up front malty beer - big stout, Ayinger Celebrator, baryleywine, etc. Using a yeast like 3711 can give give a full, creamy-ish mouthfeel even at a very low FG . And as Jonathan mentioned using a fair amount of grains like wheat or rye (both bread ingredients) could give a bready impression as well.
Jon H.

Offline erockrph

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Re: First Saison Attempt
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2015, 07:53:13 pm »
I agree probably it's a terminology issue. A 'chewy' beer to me is an up front malty beer - big stout, Ayinger Celebrator, baryleywine, etc. Using a yeast like 3711 can give give a full, creamy-ish mouthfeel even at a very low FG . And as Jonathan mentioned using a fair amount of grains like wheat or rye (both bread ingredients) could give a bready impression as well.
+1 - I think we're on a similar page, but with a terminology issue, because of the mention of "Chardonnay" character. I get a juicy character akin to a dry white wine, especially from 3711. I don't call it chewy or mouthcoating, but that's because I reserve those terms for high FG beers like barleywine or scotch ale. Sort of how the term "dry" can mean different things to different people. I refer to it as the lack of sweetness in a beverage, while others refer to the mouthfeel sensation of tannins or sulfates.

I also get the "breadlike" impression from many saisons as well, but again I don't call it chewy.
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Offline JJeffers09

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Re: First Saison Attempt
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2015, 06:34:24 am »
I like Rye or Crystal Wheat in my Saison.  I think it fits well in the summer feel of a fruity Saison, and a nice bodied smooth drinkable finished product.  As well, (I feel like I have been saying this a lot lately), think about some Special B Malt.  @ ~3-3.5% It will give a raisin, rum-raisin, flavor to your beer that can help balance the spice from the yeast and boost the malty sweet aroma, and bready mouth feel.  Above 4% Special B will give you caramel/toffee sweetness without toasty impressions.  Which you are already getting malty flavors from your Munich, I think you could boost the body with Special B.

The "malty sweet aroma, and bready mouthfeel" is what got this quibble over "terminology" started. Rather a group of common adjectives used to describe flavors.  It is like arguing with my wife over verb tense, or "You and I" instead of "Me and You" at any point.  I doubt there to be an "issue" rather than a need to quibble over opinions and impressions some people think of when they drink a beer and what I think of.  I disagree that the impression of "bready mouthfeel" relating to only Big Stout, Barleywine, or High Gravity beers or scotch ale.  The breadlike impression doesn't stop at dark big beers.  And reserving an opinion and changing how to describe it based on what style you are drinking? why would you?  Wouldn't that be like saying you are drinking a beer that you read about over the internet?  Only describing it as others have described it?  Blind taste test - see what you really get out of beer, be open and honest, and get that pompus puffery of Sommeliers out of your system and drink a beer.
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: First Saison Attempt
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2015, 09:19:23 am »
I like Rye or Crystal Wheat in my Saison.  I think it fits well in the summer feel of a fruity Saison, and a nice bodied smooth drinkable finished product.  As well, (I feel like I have been saying this a lot lately), think about some Special B Malt.  @ ~3-3.5% It will give a raisin, rum-raisin, flavor to your beer that can help balance the spice from the yeast and boost the malty sweet aroma, and bready mouth feel.  Above 4% Special B will give you caramel/toffee sweetness without toasty impressions.  Which you are already getting malty flavors from your Munich, I think you could boost the body with Special B.

The "malty sweet aroma, and bready mouthfeel" is what got this quibble over "terminology" started. Rather a group of common adjectives used to describe flavors.  It is like arguing with my wife over verb tense, or "You and I" instead of "Me and You" at any point.  I doubt there to be an "issue" rather than a need to quibble over opinions and impressions some people think of when they drink a beer and what I think of.  I disagree that the impression of "bready mouthfeel" relating to only Big Stout, Barleywine, or High Gravity beers or scotch ale.  The breadlike impression doesn't stop at dark big beers.  And reserving an opinion and changing how to describe it based on what style you are drinking? why would you?  Wouldn't that be like saying you are drinking a beer that you read about over the internet?  Only describing it as others have described it?  Blind taste test - see what you really get out of beer, be open and honest, and get that pompus puffery of Sommeliers out of your system and drink a beer.

a lot of us in the conversation are BJCP (certified, with national level tasting scores here) of one level or another. We aren't trying to invalidate your experience or opinion. However you offered advice on a recipe that doesn't jive at all with my experience with the style. We are discussing politely as is the habit of folks here on this forum. My comments were intended to feel out if the difference we were experiencing had to do with different understandings of the terms. Another option is that the examples you have tasted are a bit oxidized which can lead to a more sweet seeming character do to honey like oxidation products.

From the 2015 BJCP guidelines on flavor "Attenuation is extremely high, which gives a characteristic dry finish essential to the style; a Saison should never finish sweet"
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Re: First Saison Attempt
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2015, 09:25:16 am »
I personally like all my beers to have a citrusy, fruity, spicy, earthy aroma with hints of peppercorn spice, nutmeg and cinnamon notes and a mild Chardonnay, muscato, hard cider alcohol smell. Flavor wise I really dig a peppery, spicy phenolic and fruity estery flavor with definite bready, toasty, roasty, tollhouse chocolate chip and oatmeal cookie tones along with pear, apple, grapefruit, banana and anise tastes. Personally when it comes to mouthfeel I like it chewy like a soft, fresh baked loaf of sourdough bread with a creamy, buttery, brown sugary, sweet and dry white and red wine aftertaste that hits your tongue with a bitter, dry, bubbly and effervescent affect.

I'm joking of course.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: First Saison Attempt
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2015, 09:30:58 am »
Agreed with Jonathan.  I'm neither a sommelier nor a snob. We were just trying to sort through terms to see if that's where some of the differences in perception might lie. Last thing I'm trying to do is tell somebody they didn't perceive what they perceived.
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Offline dilluh98

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Re: First Saison Attempt
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2015, 11:45:32 am »
a Saison should never finish sweet"

This is one of the most important aspects, IMO, for a saison to be a saison. Perception of mouthfeel, different flavors or levels of spice, etc - I'm fine with all of that, but if a saison has any perception of sweetness to it I think it's missing the mark.