Author Topic: Thoughts/Advice on Parti-Gyle Brewing  (Read 1259 times)

RPIScotty

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Thoughts/Advice on Parti-Gyle Brewing
« on: November 06, 2015, 12:50:08 AM »
So I'm going to (after my daughter is born and starts to sleep) start up my small batches again using the parti-gyle method.

I'll be using the "blend" method, most likely blending the strong and weak gyles in varying proportions to enhance the weaker, using the pre-boil volumes of each.

Obviously some beers just have to be brewed solo given certain mash, boil or recipe requirements, but overall I think that for the styles I brew the method will be beneficial. Obviously the few combos that come to mind are:

BDSA/Dubbel
Tripel/Patersbier
Saison/Blonde
American Brown/English Mild
IPA/APA or English bitter
Imperial Stout/Stout or Porter
Doppelbock/Bock or Dunkel
Maibock/Helles or Oktoberfest

And the list goes on. Another thought was clone recipes. I've wanted to do the Chimay CSI recipes and this could be a good opportunity to do, say the Grande Reserve/Premiere or Blanc/Doree.

Any advice, thoughts or shared experiences that may help smooth the transition?


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Offline denny

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Re: Thoughts/Advice on Parti-Gyle Brewing
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2015, 05:05:35 PM »
My advice is be prepared to wing it.  There are lots of calculators out there and you can get ballpark estimates of your second runnings, but you'll have to adjust on the fly.  I also almost always cap the mash with some crystal before doing the second running.  They can often be tin and the crystal helps correct for that.
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RPIScotty

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Re: Thoughts/Advice on Parti-Gyle Brewing
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2015, 05:10:07 PM »
My advice is be prepared to wing it.  There are lots of calculators out there and you can get ballpark estimates of your second runnings, but you'll have to adjust on the fly.  I also almost always cap the mash with some crystal before doing the second running.  They can often be tin and the crystal helps correct for that.

Do you mix the volumes pre-boil Denny? My plan was to runoff the thick "no-sparge" first runnings, then re-infuse the mash and runoff my second runnings and combine part of the first into the second to give it more body and flavor.

Doing it this way would eliminate the need to really obsess over volumes of each batch. In fact, pre-boil volume could just be adjusted on the fly so long as you get the gravities you desire.

Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Thoughts/Advice on Parti-Gyle Brewing
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2015, 05:16:15 PM »
You tend to do your research so I won't dump too many details here. I like to brew strong ales but I like to drink smaller beers most of the time. Consequently I partigyle a lot.

a couple things that I've found helpful:

plan a no sparge for your big beers. If for no other reason than it makes the math easier.
Don't forget that you can cap the mash for the second runnings to boost gravity or change character. I will often add some crystal malt or other specialty malt along with a small amount of base malt when I add the second batch of water. that way you can do a Barleywine/Dry stout or a light colored dopplebock/dunkel or similar.
Check out Sean Terrill's partigyle simulator Kai Troesters version. either one works well. Even if you prefer to do the math on your own going forward it's nice to have a place to start.
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RPIScotty

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Re: Thoughts/Advice on Parti-Gyle Brewing
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2015, 05:25:24 PM »
You tend to do your research so I won't dump too many details here. I like to brew strong ales but I like to drink smaller beers most of the time. Consequently I partigyle a lot.

a couple things that I've found helpful:

plan a no sparge for your big beers. If for no other reason than it makes the math easier.
Don't forget that you can cap the mash for the second runnings to boost gravity or change character. I will often add some crystal malt or other specialty malt along with a small amount of base malt when I add the second batch of water. that way you can do a Barleywine/Dry stout or a light colored dopplebock/dunkel or similar.
Check out Sean Terrill's partigyle simulator Kai Troesters version. either one works well. Even if you prefer to do the math on your own going forward it's nice to have a place to start.

Those suggestions are very good as I'm actually looking for a low tech approach. I was thinking this:

1.) Calculate strike water for no-sparge 1st runnings. Vorlauf and drain to 1st vessel.
2.) Re-infuse with enough water for equivalent size batch of second runnings. Vorlauf and drain to a 2nd vessel.
3.) Only worry about volumes to the extent that at the end I have 2 equivalent batch volumes.
4.) Mix some of the strong runnings into the weaker runnings to boost gravity of the second runnings and give it some of the malt flavor from the stronger.
5.) Add sugars to differentiate the batches, hop differently and use different yeast if necessary.

« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 05:49:22 PM by RPIScotty »

Offline denny

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Re: Thoughts/Advice on Parti-Gyle Brewing
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2015, 06:12:02 PM »
My advice is be prepared to wing it.  There are lots of calculators out there and you can get ballpark estimates of your second runnings, but you'll have to adjust on the fly.  I also almost always cap the mash with some crystal before doing the second running.  They can often be tin and the crystal helps correct for that.

Do you mix the volumes pre-boil Denny? My plan was to runoff the thick "no-sparge" first runnings, then re-infuse the mash and runoff my second runnings and combine part of the first into the second to give it more body and flavor.

Doing it this way would eliminate the need to really obsess over volumes of each batch. In fact, pre-boil volume could just be adjusted on the fly so long as you get the gravities you desire.

Nope, I don't do that.  Generally I need all of the first runnings for the stronger beer.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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RPIScotty

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Re: Thoughts/Advice on Parti-Gyle Brewing
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2015, 06:15:43 PM »
My advice is be prepared to wing it.  There are lots of calculators out there and you can get ballpark estimates of your second runnings, but you'll have to adjust on the fly.  I also almost always cap the mash with some crystal before doing the second running.  They can often be tin and the crystal helps correct for that.

Do you mix the volumes pre-boil Denny? My plan was to runoff the thick "no-sparge" first runnings, then re-infuse the mash and runoff my second runnings and combine part of the first into the second to give it more body and flavor.

Doing it this way would eliminate the need to really obsess over volumes of each batch. In fact, pre-boil volume could just be adjusted on the fly so long as you get the gravities you desire.

Nope, I don't do that.  Generally I need all of the first runnings for the stronger beer.

I guess you could just prepare in a way so that you overshoot the desired gravity of your strong beer so that you would have margin and be able to mix some of those strong runnings into the weaker beer.

RPIScotty

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Re: Thoughts/Advice on Parti-Gyle Brewing
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2015, 07:24:17 PM »
Through this together real quick:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8F3C1boHghNd3h2UGJOM2ZaZW8/view?usp=sharing

This is obviously a trial and error process but the spreadsheet makes some approximations to get the ball rolling.

Offline kramerog

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Re: Thoughts/Advice on Parti-Gyle Brewing
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2015, 07:49:49 PM »
I revised Kai's calculator to correct a bug in the boil-off volume in quarts and to add a mash volume calculation.  See the link in my signature line.  I use 98% as my conversion efficiency and have hit my numbers on or close to the nail often. 

I haven't blended the runnings.  Instead I put more effort in designing the initial mash and possibly a side mash to be blended with the initial mash after the first runnings - if the malts  for the second runnings don't require mashing then I will just cap.  My philosophy is to make the brew day as simple as possible.

You'll want a decent refractometer in any case to measure your gravities quickly.

RPIScotty

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Re: Thoughts/Advice on Parti-Gyle Brewing
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2015, 10:14:18 PM »
I revised Kai's calculator to correct a bug in the boil-off volume in quarts and to add a mash volume calculation.  See the link in my signature line.  I use 98% as my conversion efficiency and have hit my numbers on or close to the nail often. 

I haven't blended the runnings.  Instead I put more effort in designing the initial mash and possibly a side mash to be blended with the initial mash after the first runnings - if the malts  for the second runnings don't require mashing then I will just cap.  My philosophy is to make the brew day as simple as possible.

You'll want a decent refractometer in any case to measure your gravities quickly.

I'll probably skip the refractometer as my hydrometer works just fine. Truth be told if prefer to just blend the runnings rather than cap and remash. I'm looking for a simpler way.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Thoughts/Advice on Parti-Gyle Brewing
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2015, 10:17:35 PM »
I revised Kai's calculator to correct a bug in the boil-off volume in quarts and to add a mash volume calculation.  See the link in my signature line.  I use 98% as my conversion efficiency and have hit my numbers on or close to the nail often. 

I haven't blended the runnings.  Instead I put more effort in designing the initial mash and possibly a side mash to be blended with the initial mash after the first runnings - if the malts  for the second runnings don't require mashing then I will just cap.  My philosophy is to make the brew day as simple as possible.

You'll want a decent refractometer in any case to measure your gravities quickly.

I'll probably skip the refractometer as my hydrometer works just fine. Truth be told if prefer to just blend the runnings rather than cap and remash. I'm looking for a simpler way.

Thanks for the suggestions.

capping the mash is pretty simple. if you use grains that don't require conversion you add the grains, the water, stir and wait 10-15 minutes tops, if they do require conversion wait 30 minutes.

Capping the mash though, as far as I'm concerned, is more about opening up your second running options than about hitting a gravity target on the second runnings.

blending runnings is very traditional though. seems pretty straightforward to me, pull the first runnings into one container, the second into another, measure each, do the math and mix. boil as usual.
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RPIScotty

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Thoughts/Advice on Parti-Gyle Brewing
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2015, 11:15:21 PM »
blending runnings is very traditional though. seems pretty straightforward to me, pull the first runnings into one container, the second into another, measure each, do the math and mix. boil as usual.

That's kind of what I was thinking. You have tons of leeway with your volumes, to the point where you can mainly just estimate and use the math to "massage" the blend into place. If I was going to cap I think I would just do another mash altogether. At that point it wouldn't take much more time.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 01:04:51 AM by RPIScotty »

RPIScotty

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Re: Thoughts/Advice on Parti-Gyle Brewing
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2015, 01:08:18 AM »

I haven't blended the runnings.  Instead I put more effort in designing the initial mash and possibly a side mash to be blended with the initial mash after the first runnings - if the malts  for the second runnings don't require mashing then I will just cap. MY PHILOSOPHY IS TO MAKE THE BREW DAY AS SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE.

This sounds like a great method that you use but I can't really think of anything simpler than blasting off two runnings and blending them. Doing a side mash and capping would just add time to the brew day, no?


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Offline kramerog

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Re: Thoughts/Advice on Parti-Gyle Brewing
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2015, 02:17:33 AM »
Sure if the only difference between the two worts pre-boil is strength than blending 1st and 2nd runnings is simplest.  However the difference bedtween a RIS and a regular stout is not just stregth.  They have different grain bills.

RPIScotty

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Re: Thoughts/Advice on Parti-Gyle Brewing
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2015, 01:36:53 PM »

Sure if the only difference between the two worts pre-boil is strength than blending 1st and 2nd runnings is simplest.  However the difference bedtween a RIS and a regular stout is not just stregth.  They have different grain bills.

I guess if you were to brew something with a dissimilar grain bill you'd have to make a compromise somewhere for simplicity sake.


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