Author Topic: Chilling The Wort: No Chill vs. Quick Chill | xBmt Results!  (Read 7028 times)

rabeb25

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Re: Chilling The Wort: No Chill vs. Quick Chill | xBmt Results!
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2015, 04:15:02 PM »
How is it a helles when its brewed with a kolsch yeast?
Oh, Bryan, just let it be.

I always thought that maybe the Aussies just had terrible palates... I guess this sort of confirms that, while this method doesn't produce bad beer, it doesn't produce the best possible beer.

I'm sorry...I have trigger words, the American bastardization of traditional German Styles happen to be some of them. It's hard to let that go un-noticed. So its a light ale.

Sure back at hand...No chill sucks, when brewing a traditional beer. You have to account for the extra bitterness and what not extracted from the longer contact. Couple BIAB and some good squeezing with some no-chill and you have a something........ ::)

Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: Chilling The Wort: No Chill vs. Quick Chill | xBmt Results!
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2015, 04:26:12 PM »
Why is it important to squeeze the air out of the cube with no chill? Is that for sanitation? Just curious.

Creates a partial vacuum so the buggers cannot enter the cube.
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Offline rjharper

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Re: Chilling The Wort: No Chill vs. Quick Chill | xBmt Results!
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2015, 04:30:04 PM »
So getting back to the OP topic of chill versus no chill, I'm focused on chill haze and cold break. The old adage was that without rapid chilling there was a poorer cold break and so probably some chill haze. Do you think the gelatin fining mitigated some of this?

I (like a lot of homebrewers probably) don't fine, I let time and temperature drop my kegs perfectly bright as is. Do you think there would have been a more noticeable difference between the batches without fining?

Offline germanbrew

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Re: Chilling The Wort: No Chill vs. Quick Chill | xBmt Results!
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2015, 04:41:40 PM »
Its not about a palate, Let me put it this way.. you do an exbeeriment where you blind triangle your "helles" with good fresh examples of the style from Germany. When people can't tell a difference there, I will then be "sold". Still won't call it a lager or a helles though.

Also use a real yeast with character, 833/838/2206/etc. You are comparing the "US05" of lager yeasts.
I mean... compare your homemade Helles with a traditional example sent over from Germany, I bet people could tell them apart. Now, compare your homemade example using traditional lager yeast with my homemade example using WLP029 and there's a good chance, assuming our recipe and process were the same otherwise, people would have a much more difficult time distinguishing them.

Isn't the goal (when trying to brew a specific style) to match the actual beers from that region or of that style?  I'm not convinced that comparing homebrew to homebrew is an effective comparison.  More useful, as Bryan is saying, to compare homebrew example to an original.

I've done that plenty of times, my Helles with 029 comes closer than anything I've made using traditional yeast.

I get that people are married to their perspectives, that's exactly why I started Brülosophy in the first place... and chose this as the first kit release :)

Cool...which example is that recipe closest to? (sorry if this is peripherally hijacking the thread - please let me know if there's a specific discussion about it somewhere else).  I like the use of Belgian Pils malt, I've heard great things about it having a nice soft breadiness.

Offline brulosopher

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Re: Chilling The Wort: No Chill vs. Quick Chill | xBmt Results!
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2015, 04:44:32 PM »

Its not about a palate, Let me put it this way.. you do an exbeeriment where you blind triangle your "helles" with good fresh examples of the style from Germany. When people can't tell a difference there, I will then be "sold". Still won't call it a lager or a helles though.

Also use a real yeast with character, 833/838/2206/etc. You are comparing the "US05" of lager yeasts.
I mean... compare your homemade Helles with a traditional example sent over from Germany, I bet people could tell them apart. Now, compare your homemade example using traditional lager yeast with my homemade example using WLP029 and there's a good chance, assuming our recipe and process were the same otherwise, people would have a much more difficult time distinguishing them.

Isn't the goal (when trying to brew a specific style) to match the actual beers from that region or of that style?  I'm not convinced that comparing homebrew to homebrew is an effective comparison.  More useful, as Bryan is saying, to compare homebrew example to an original.

I've done that plenty of times, my Helles with 029 comes closer than anything I've made using traditional yeast.

I get that people are married to their perspectives, that's exactly why I started Brülosophy in the first place... and chose this as the first kit release :)

Cool...which example is that recipe closest to? (sorry if this is peripherally hijacking the thread - please let me know if there's a specific discussion about it somewhere else).  I like the use of Belgian Pils malt, I've heard great things about it having a nice soft breadiness.

In my opinion, it's probably closest to a fresher version of Hofbräu Original, but I'm not really good at comparisons like this.

Offline brulosopher

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Re: Chilling The Wort: No Chill vs. Quick Chill | xBmt Results!
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2015, 04:49:26 PM »

How is it a helles when its brewed with a kolsch yeast?
Oh, Bryan, just let it be.

I always thought that maybe the Aussies just had terrible palates... I guess this sort of confirms that, while this method doesn't produce bad beer, it doesn't produce the best possible beer.

I'm sorry...I have trigger words, the American bastardization of traditional German Styles happen to be some of them. It's hard to let that go un-noticed. So its a light ale.

Sounds like more a dogmatic philosophy than anything else, I'm cool with that- call it what you want, it tastes like a Helles :)
So getting back to the OP topic of chill versus no chill, I'm focused on chill haze and cold break. The old adage was that without rapid chilling there was a poorer cold break and so probably some chill haze. Do you think the gelatin fining mitigated some of this?

I (like a lot of homebrewers probably) don't fine, I let time and temperature drop my kegs perfectly bright as is. Do you think there would have been a more noticeable difference between the batches without fining?

I absolutely believe the gelatin helped with clarity, but I've yet to do a no chill + gelatin side by side, so I'm not certain.

Offline brothermalcolm

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Re: Chilling The Wort: No Chill vs. Quick Chill | xBmt Results!
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2015, 05:38:03 PM »
Positive pressure may help that but not a vacuum.

Why is it important to squeeze the air out of the cube with no chill? Is that for sanitation? Just curious.

Creates a partial vacuum so the buggers cannot enter the cube.

Offline Stevie

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Re: Chilling The Wort: No Chill vs. Quick Chill | xBmt Results!
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2015, 05:39:29 PM »
I think squeezing is to ensure a long contact time across all surfaces to ensure sanitization.

Offline brothermalcolm

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Re: Chilling The Wort: No Chill vs. Quick Chill | xBmt Results!
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2015, 05:44:05 PM »
It's Helles-like really. Sure, not a lager. But the beer is what is presents itself to be. If it's tastes clean and lager like who cares. And it's not the issue at hand either. The beer is a platform for the experiment.

How is it a helles when its brewed with a kolsch yeast?
Oh, Bryan, just let it be.

I always thought that maybe the Aussies just had terrible palates... I guess this sort of confirms that, while this method doesn't produce bad beer, it doesn't produce the best possible beer.

It's hard to let it be, when he's now partnered with a homebrew supply company & will be pawning his nonsense off as beer kits that are sold as 'Munich Helles'.
That, to me, is bothersome.
It's not a Munich Helles...
It's a light ale.

Offline Kit B

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Re: Chilling The Wort: No Chill vs. Quick Chill | xBmt Results!
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2015, 05:53:44 PM »
Sounds like more a dogmatic philosophy than anything else, I'm cool with that- call it what you want, it tastes like a Helles :)

Out of curiosity, what would you say are the factors that set it apart from other light lagers/ales & makes it resemble a Munich helles, specifically?
Why would anyone want to drink stale beer?

Offline brothermalcolm

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Re: Chilling The Wort: No Chill vs. Quick Chill | xBmt Results!
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2015, 05:54:52 PM »
I like this idea. You can chill to just below DMS conversion and isomerization temp and then "no chill".

The one major concern would be that you are no longer able to sanitize the cube with the 200F ish wort - need another method.

I have recently seen somewhere that if you drop quickly the temps to 80ºC (I think it was that) before your "no chill" you can leave the rest of the job to the no chill method so that you don’t have to deal with isomerization problems. I don't know if there is any truth to that, but may be worth a shot.

RPIScotty

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Re: Chilling The Wort: No Chill vs. Quick Chill | xBmt Results!
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2015, 06:03:51 PM »
Sounds like more a dogmatic philosophy than anything else, I'm cool with that- call it what you want, it tastes like a Helles :)

Out of curiosity, what would you say are the factors that set it apart from other light lagers/ales & makes it resemble a Munich helles, specifically?

The taste. At least from his point of view.

Offline charles1968

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Re: Chilling The Wort: No Chill vs. Quick Chill | xBmt Results!
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2015, 07:33:18 PM »
I would expect the two beers to have identical bitterness as there's only one hop addition at 60 mins and alpha acids will be fully isomerised. The different flavour and darker colour of the no-chill beer presumably come from the wort being "cooked"at high temp for much longer. Probably not a good technique for lager but might be fine for lots of ales.

Offline pete b

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Re: Chilling The Wort: No Chill vs. Quick Chill | xBmt Results!
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2015, 08:06:19 PM »
After reading this thread I have to admire Marshall's patience. It must be tempting for him to leave out all but the pertinent details and not open himself up to criticism about every single aspect of his brew day relevant or (as in this case) irrelevant. Instead he includes every detail, including ones he knows can be used to criticize his work, so that anyone can come to their own conclusion. Kudos.
I would suggest that instead of hijacking this thread those who are offended, hurt, or confused can start a separate thread: "Marshall is awful and spreading lies about the classification of a beer style and it doesn't matter what he thinks it tastes like because the only thing that matters is what I think should be in a particular style based on what I have read even though I have never tasted his beer"
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Chilling The Wort: No Chill vs. Quick Chill | xBmt Results!
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2015, 08:15:48 PM »
+1.  This goes down as one of the most ridiculous derails on this forum in a while - seriously, ripping on his kits ? How lame. Regardless of any stupid style arguments, he brewed a CLEAN beer, well suited to evaluating chill vs no chill - for those keeping score, the title of this thread. Sorry to interrupt the derail.  ;)
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