[beersk]

Good points and I agree. I would, however, like to know how to get the flavors I taste in those German examples in my own beer though. And I feel those are true representations of the style, not necessarily what BJCP is telling you. That's the point Bryan was making, I believe.

No arguments with any of that. I agree that the BJCP casts way too wide a net (and often casts it off-target) on a lot of styles, but even for a style like Helles I think the style limits need to allow for more than simply "clones of the following short list of beers". I don't think that style should drift very far from those examples, but you need a little room in that circle around those beers.

And I will not deny that it is quite an impressive feat if you are able to produce an exact clone of one of the classic German examples. Just don't be a douche if you do. 

Indeedydoobly. If I hit the mark, I'd want to share it with the world!

[The Beerery]

Good points and I agree. I would, however, like to know how to get the flavors I taste in those German examples in my own beer though. And I feel those are true representations of the style, not necessarily what BJCP is telling you. That's the point Bryan was making, I believe.

No arguments with any of that. I agree that the BJCP casts way too wide a net (and often casts it off-target) on a lot of styles, but even for a style like Helles I think the style limits need to allow for more than simply "clones of the following short list of beers". I don't think that style should drift very far from those examples, but you need a little room in that circle around those beers.

And I will not deny that it is quite an impressive feat if you are able to produce an exact clone of one of the classic German examples. Just don't be a douche if you do. 

Indeedydoobly. If I hit the mark, I'd want to share it with the world!

 

[klickitat jim]

To be clear, I'm not a "bjcp style guides are gospel" kind of guy. Frankly, they are the result of committee style decision, and its likely no veteran judge agrees with every single thing stated in them. But that doesn't mean burn it down because of a few flaws.

If I wasn't clear enough, my stance is exact cloning is cool, hitting the style guidelines is cool, brewing whatever ypu want is cool. I don't even care if someone brews a 1.100 pitch black sour beer with peanut butter and goatheads and calls it a Munich Helles. Whatever floats your boat. The only thing remotely important at times is when you are trying to get input on a beer. If you say Munich Helles, expect feedback to that style. If you are trying to brew a Weihenstephaner Original,  expect feedback to that specific beer. What can rub folks the wrong way is when they are trying to brew a Munich Helles and you give feedback based on the idea that it must be a WO. Or if they are trying to brew a WO, and you say that any random Cara thing will work...

Hopefully that explains why I spoke up

[Kit B]

Indeedydoobly. If I hit the mark, I'd want to share it with the world!

You wouldn't keep any secrets, for yourself & select pupils?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL7nLSSSWjw

[mchrispen]

@klickitatjim - I think I missed in all of the derail what your next planned step is? It would be interesting to compare notes. I am still going to keep at this for a few more batches - em... the American way.

[beersk]

Indeedydoobly. If I hit the mark, I'd want to share it with the world!

You wouldn't keep any secrets, for yourself & select pupils?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL7nLSSSWjw

Why would I want to keep it a secret? I always hate when breweries are super secretive about their beers. It's just beer, I mean, come on. People are still going to buy your beers. Besides, I don't think it's possible to 100% clone a commercial beer. There's always variables that make them different: scale, ingredients, water, equipment... That's a lot of variables!
I know I'd appreciate it if someone found the secret to German beers and spread the word. There could be ONE LITTLE THING I'm missing. And that one little thing could take me years to figure out, but it could be right in front of me. I'd really appreciate it if someone pointed that out to me. It doesn't need to be kept a secret. And if you'd like to explain to me why you should keep it a secret except to us brewers at the German Brewing Forum, I'm all ears (eyes).

[The Beerery]

edit.

[klickitat jim]

@klickitatjim - I think I missed in all of the derail what your next planned step is? It would be interesting to compare notes. I am still going to keep at this for a few more batches - em... the American way.

No derail,  its all good.

Next step is single infusion.  I'll post the full ridiculous details when I'm a day away from brew day.