Author Topic: Dramatic flavor-change question  (Read 983 times)

Offline gimmeales

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Dramatic flavor-change question
« on: November 21, 2015, 06:34:38 PM »
Hey all, this is more of a general process\flaw detection question, but it's technically an all-grain batch so:

Made what turned out to be a killer beer for my birthday over the summer - just re-brewed a few weeks ago.

It's a bruiser of a IIPA, coming in at 11.5 %ABV (all 2-row except 3.5% rye, 3.5% cara-vienna and 6% cane sugar). Has nearly a pound of high-alpha hops. Largest additions are at flameout and gets double dry-hopped (5-days each). Second dry-hop addition was in the O2-purged keg when I pulled them, cold-crashed it, hit it will gelatin and it was diamond-bright (except for minor residual hop matter) in 48 hrs.

As I was tasting it 24hrs after adding gelatin, life was wonderful: it was full of massive citrus, floral, blackberry, and green tea aromas with a touch of dankness in the bank. Spicy, warming alcohol and just enough malt sweetness to give some semblance of balance. If anything it was better than the first iteration.

Literally on day 3 after fining, the beer now pops with a big, cloying caramel note in the aroma and flavor. Totally different beer.

So, does anything jump out as a culprit? My only guess is oxidation at this point - but this is such a dramatic shift, I really don't know. My original birthday beer was only dry hopped-once due to time constraints and consumed the night of the party so I wasn't able to fine that one or even age it so don't know if the same issue would have arisen.

Any insights as to the cause of this unfortunate turn of events is welcome!

Cheers!
- Ryan


Offline Stevie

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Re: Dramatic flavor-change question
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2015, 06:42:10 PM »
What temp are you pouring at?

Offline gimmeales

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Re: Dramatic flavor-change question
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2015, 06:55:17 PM »
Hrm, well I assumed low 40's, but my thermometer in a freshly poured sample says 56F which I'm not sure I trust  atm. It's at the spot at the temp control dial where I've served all my beers for awhile now.

Offline Stevie

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Re: Dramatic flavor-change question
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2015, 07:09:34 PM »
Low 40's should be fine, I pour most of my beers at 45°. I don't fine IPAs, so I can't tell you if that caused your pain.

Offline alestateyall

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Dramatic flavor-change question
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2015, 07:10:58 PM »
Are you sure it is not a butter flavor? That sounds like diacetyl. It can appear after kegging/bottling.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Dramatic flavor-change question
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2015, 07:28:16 PM »
Are you sure it is not a butter flavor? That sounds like diacetyl. It can appear after kegging/bottling.
Especially if you get a pedio infection at packaging

Offline alestateyall

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Dramatic flavor-change question
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2015, 07:37:20 PM »
In my case it has happened from kegging too soon.

Offline gimmeales

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Re: Dramatic flavor-change question
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2015, 07:39:40 PM »
mouthfeel is fuller than you'd expect for finishing at 1.011 and I had thought buttery 'could' be a component but I'm not terribly sensitive to diacetyl. Assumed fuller mouthfeel was from alcohol and hop oils.

Fermentation was in stainless (10-gallon corny) at 66F for 14 days, then 5 days on first dry hop @ ~68F, which seems to also reduce likelyhood of diacetyl?

I don't know much about Pedio behavior - can it turn a beer so quickly?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2015, 07:42:30 PM by gimmeales »

Online HoosierBrew

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Re: Dramatic flavor-change question
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2015, 08:12:04 PM »
You said you didn't use gelatin on the first batch, but that you did on this one. I feel that gelatin drops hop character a bit and with a huge 11.5% beer, if the balance of the hop character dropped off some, the beer could seem suddenly a little sweeter/more caramelly. Some oxidation of hop compounds may well have happened here too. I'd bet on these issues given the time frame.
Jon H.

Offline alestateyall

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Re: Dramatic flavor-change question
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2015, 09:12:32 PM »

mouthfeel is fuller than you'd expect for finishing at 1.011 and I had thought buttery 'could' be a component but I'm not terribly sensitive to diacetyl. Assumed fuller mouthfeel was from alcohol and hop oils.

Fermentation was in stainless (10-gallon corny) at 66F for 14 days, then 5 days on first dry hop @ ~68F, which seems to also reduce likelyhood of diacetyl?

I don't know much about Pedio behavior - can it turn a beer so quickly?
That seems like enough time for the yeast to clean up diacetyl. Diacetyl has a precursor that is untastable. That precursor can change to diacetyl when the beer cools off.  It is possible that the precursor was still in the beer at kegging and converted to diacetyl in the keg.

It's easy to under pitch such a big beer. That can lead to excessive diacetyl.

You can fix it if it is diacetyl. Warm it up and for a 5G batch pitch a 2L starter into it when the starter is at high krausen. Let that ferment out and rekeg as you normally would. I have done this twice over the years with great success.

Offline gimmeales

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Re: Dramatic flavor-change question
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2015, 09:58:51 PM »
interesting on the re-pitching idea, I'll mull that over.

for the record I pitched 2 rehydrated packets of US-05 which according to mrmalty is more than enough for a 1.096 beer.

edit: y'all are awesome btw, thanks for the ideas!

Offline Stevie

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Re: Dramatic flavor-change question
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2015, 10:30:07 PM »
What is your water situation?

Offline alestateyall

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Re: Dramatic flavor-change question
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2015, 10:48:42 PM »

interesting on the re-pitching idea, I'll mull that over.

for the record I pitched 2 rehydrated packets of US-05 which according to mrmalty is more than enough for a 1.096 beer.

edit: y'all are awesome btw, thanks for the ideas!
I think you should have a friend taste it. I'd hate for you to waste your time on krausening if something else is causing the taste change.

Offline TeeDubb

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Re: Dramatic flavor-change question
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2015, 11:10:31 PM »
For what it's worth, I had something similar happen on a recent 8% ABV IIPA that had just a shade over a pound of hops between whirlpool and dry hopping.  I tried to contain the hop matter using nylon bags during the boil, whirlpool and double dry hop. it seemed to work well compared to prior attempts.

After a few days of conditioning and the same type of gelatin fining process you mention it tasted pretty good, had awesome aroma and was very clear.  I hit it with C02 for a week and something odd happened.  I got a bunch of yeasty and perhaps oxidized flavors (and even better clarity).  I happened to shake the keg to get a little more gas into solution and the beer turned slightly hazy again...and...tasted better.  I don't understand where the haze came from unless the the gelatin got the yeast, but some of the residual hop matter floated on top.

I've had this on tap for a month and I will say that if I let it sit for 3-4 days, the first 4 oz that come out of the initial pour are slightly murky, then it looks right with a touch of haze and tastes great.  I need a transparent keg to figure this out.

Maybe if you shake your keg you could help me figure out my problem  :D

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Dramatic flavor-change question
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2015, 12:29:25 AM »
mouthfeel is fuller than you'd expect for finishing at 1.011 and I had thought buttery 'could' be a component but I'm not terribly sensitive to diacetyl. Assumed fuller mouthfeel was from alcohol and hop oils.

Fermentation was in stainless (10-gallon corny) at 66F for 14 days, then 5 days on first dry hop @ ~68F, which seems to also reduce likelyhood of diacetyl?

I don't know much about Pedio behavior - can it turn a beer so quickly?
Pedio is works quite quickly and can throw a lot of Diacetyl