Author Topic: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!  (Read 7834 times)

Offline blatz

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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2015, 08:06:07 PM »
Which it does.  But if it changes the flavor, is it worth the tradeoff?

in a few styles, perhaps.  this method helps me keep my schwarzbier from being overly porter like.
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Offline duncan

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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2015, 08:32:37 PM »
Another interesting xBmt. Thanks for sharing these, Marshall!
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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2015, 08:33:08 PM »
Which it does.  But if it changes the flavor, is it worth the tradeoff?

in a few styles, perhaps.  this method helps me keep my schwarzbier from being overly porter like.

I've used Midnight Wheat in my Schwarzbier and it wasn't Porter-like at all.

Offline PORTERHAUS

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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2015, 08:35:23 PM »
I spent several years doing late additions, cold steeping, etc. in an attempt to smooth out my dark beers.  After several years, I realized they had become so smooth they were insipid.  I went back the other way and now even use a small amount of black patent in dark beers to get the hit of flavor I'm looking for.

I've done the same on occasion, Denny. All the years I blamed my recipes I didn't realize it was a pH issue !

I'm not even sure if it was a pH issue.  I think that the shorter contact time extracts less flavor from the dark grains.  Now, that may be due to pH, but I really don't know.

No, I agree with you on shorter contact time/less extract.  I just meant that I used to get frustrated with dark beers, thinking the only way to make a good one was to cold steep, add at vorlauf, etc., where mashing together at a higher pH got what I was after all along.

What mash ph do you shoot for in a dark beer with roasted grains?

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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2015, 08:37:34 PM »
I spent several years doing late additions, cold steeping, etc. in an attempt to smooth out my dark beers.  After several years, I realized they had become so smooth they were insipid.  I went back the other way and now even use a small amount of black patent in dark beers to get the hit of flavor I'm looking for.

I've done the same on occasion, Denny. All the years I blamed my recipes I didn't realize it was a pH issue !

I'm not even sure if it was a pH issue.  I think that the shorter contact time extracts less flavor from the dark grains.  Now, that may be due to pH, but I really don't know.

No, I agree with you on shorter contact time/less extract.  I just meant that I used to get frustrated with dark beers, thinking the only way to make a good one was to cold steep, add at vorlauf, etc., where mashing together at a higher pH got what I was after all along.

What mash ph do you shoot for in a dark beer with roasted grains?


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Offline blatz

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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2015, 08:42:30 PM »
Which it does.  But if it changes the flavor, is it worth the tradeoff?

in a few styles, perhaps.  this method helps me keep my schwarzbier from being overly porter like.

I've used Midnight Wheat in my Schwarzbier and it wasn't Porter-like at all.

yeah - I did the add prior to sparge with MW on my latest run of Schwarz.  Its still lagering but ive been very happy with the initial results - just a kiss of roast aroma and flavor.  that said, this is also first time using MW in a Schwarz.

my opinion is 90% of the time when using dark roasted grains you want the intense flavors and aromas, so mash it the whole time.  for Schwarz and maybe black IPA, the capping the mash method may make sense.
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Offline blatz

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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2015, 08:46:02 PM »
sparge method may also play a part in these results, no?

I capped the mash with midnight wheat for my latest Schwarz, but I fly sparge, which means that they'll be getting 45-55min contact time.  whereas a batch sparger is much less time, perhaps?

just a thought.
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Offline brewday

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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2015, 09:02:00 PM »
sparge method may also play a part in these results, no?

I capped the mash with midnight wheat for my latest Schwarz, but I fly sparge, which means that they'll be getting 45-55min contact time.  whereas a batch sparger is much less time, perhaps?

just a thought.

That would be my guess.  This has to come down to contact time, I would think.  Even with batch sparging people have different runoff times.  Mine are slow.

Plus this one was done via no-sparge.  When I run off full volume/no sparge I make sure to give the "capping" extra time.

Blatz, do you notice less color when you cap?
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Offline tesgüino

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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2015, 09:03:41 PM »
I single batch sparge, but my method has been to add crystal malts after taking my first runnings, stir and recirculate for 15 minutes, then drain again.

Offline blatz

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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2015, 09:19:47 PM »
Blatz, do you notice less color when you cap?

hard to really say - the last time I did a Schwarz I used Carafa II, mashed the whole time. 

This time, I replaced the carafa with MW, but also shifted the munich and pils ratio.

what I can say, is that it does seem, based on memory, to be lighter by a hair than what I recall, but it is also exactly how I want it to be - black when looking at the pint indirectly when on the bar, but reddish with black edges when held to the light.

I also capped a black rye DIPA and had a similar color result.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 09:22:45 PM by blatz »
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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2015, 09:39:08 PM »
I single batch sparge, but my method has been to add crystal malts after taking my first runnings, stir and recirculate for 15 minutes, then drain again.

What's the reason for that?
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Offline tesgüino

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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2015, 10:03:59 PM »
I single batch sparge, but my method has been to add crystal malts after taking my first runnings, stir and recirculate for 15 minutes, then drain again.

What's the reason for that?
I bought into Gordon's single water treatment for most beers line. I've convinced myself that the color and roast character is the same with less astringency, but never did a side-by-side, so can't make that claim.

Any time savings, one way or the other, is insignificant.

So, I guess the only reason is blind faith.  :-[



 
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 10:05:32 PM by tesgüino »

Offline MDixon

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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2015, 10:22:41 PM »
My personal opinion is unless you find your beers astringent to forget all the extra steps. That being said I find very few beers are actually astringent today and most people who describe something as astringent don't understand astringency is a sensation, not a flavor. If you taste or smell astringency then you fall into the category of those who don't understand. ;)
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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2015, 10:43:50 PM »
I single batch sparge, but my method has been to add crystal malts after taking my first runnings, stir and recirculate for 15 minutes, then drain again.

What's the reason for that?
I bought into Gordon's single water treatment for most beers line. I've convinced myself that the color and roast character is the same with less astringency, but never did a side-by-side, so can't make that claim.

Any time savings, one way or the other, is insignificant.

So, I guess the only reason is blind faith.  :-[

If you think your beers improved, that's really what matters most.  I don't think you necessarily need to do a side-by-side to determine that.
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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2015, 10:48:14 PM »
my opinion is 90% of the time when using dark roasted grains you want the intense flavors and aromas, so mash it the whole time.  for Schwarz and maybe black IPA, the capping the mash method may make sense.

I agree with this, Paul. I do add Midnight Wheat @ vorlauf in the case of the latter.
Jon H.