[brulosopher]

My personal opinion is unless you find your beers astringent to forget all the extra steps. That being said I find very few beers are actually astringent today and most people who describe something as astringent don't understand astringency is a sensation, not a flavor. If you taste or smell astringency then you fall into the category of those who don't understand.

This may sound cynical, but I think brewers sometimes think their beer tastes a certain way because of something they've read, even if that character isn't really there. The same way I think judges often misperceive certain flavors/aroma for off-flavors because it's unfamiliar to them (e.g., unique Pils malt character for DMS, UK Caramelt malt for diacetyl, etc). I could be wrong. Or just a dick

[dmtaylor]

This may sound cynical, but I think brewers sometimes think their beer tastes a certain way because of something they've read, even if that character isn't really there. The same way I think judges often misperceive certain flavors/aroma for off-flavors because it's unfamiliar to them (e.g., unique Pils malt character for DMS, UK Caramelt malt for diacetyl, etc). I could be wrong. Or just a dick

No, I'm the dick.  But you're right, though.  I think Novice or Recognized judges, especially, enjoy applying their newfound knowledge of off-flavors in overly creative ways.  And then some judges never seem to be able to grow out of it.  Unfortunately I've also seen a Master level judge who claimed he could pick up astringency in the aroma.  Uh, no, sorry buddy.... he lost 100% credibility with that one.  I don't care what the hell level somebody thinks he is.... that's just wrong.

[Hooper]

So...I'm thinking of doing the following mash schedule on my next 5 gal dark beer. I will add the dark grains and 1 tsp of baking soda at the start of sacc2...sacc1 would be my usual water treatment for a pale ale...what do you think?

sacc1                  0     40    145   
sacc2                  0     30    159
mash out             0     10    168

[dmtaylor]

Too complicated.  Mash the whole thing at 150 F for 40 minutes and call it good.  You can get it up to a boil within about 30 minutes, correct?  Consider that your "mashout".

[santoch]

I'm with Dave.  Keep it simple.  You won't add anything with that mash schedule except hours to your brewday.
145 is beta favoring but really really slow.  159 is alpha favoring but denatures everything rather quickly.
You will still get favorable beta and alpha amylase activity at 150-ish without the extra time and hassle spent on the 2 rests.

HTH-

[PORTERHAUS]

5.5 -5.6.  Try it sometime !

I plan on it. On the next batch actually.

[hopfenundmalz]

sparge method may also play a part in these results, no?

I capped the mash with midnight wheat for my latest Schwarz, but I fly sparge, which means that they'll be getting 45-55min contact time.  whereas a batch sparger is much less time, perhaps?

just a thought.

That is a good point, Gordon's system is the same as my usual set up, so yes, he fly sparges.

I used to make dark beers that Mrs. R called acrid, "Ash Tray", beers. With measurement and control of pH to 5.5-5.6 for those, that unwanted charactoristic is gone.

[AmandaK]

I'm with Dave.  Keep it simple.  You won't add anything with that mash schedule except hours to your brewday.
145 is beta favoring but really really slow.  159 is alpha favoring but denatures everything rather quickly.
You will still get favorable beta and alpha amylase activity at 150-ish without the extra time and hassle spent on the 2 rests.

HTH-

Can confirm on the 145 slowness and the 159 (okay, 158) quickness. I am still surprised how quickly a mash can convert at 150F compared to the same mash at 145F. Will be posting my data when I get some time.

[beersk]

So for something like black IPA, does a mash pH of 5.5 play well for the hops? I can't remember if a lower mash pH is beneficial for better hop character or not.
I mashed my current black IPA at pH 5.4 according to Bru'n water and it came out wonderfully. Mashed 11oz debittered black malt for the entire 75 minute mash at 150F.

[mabrungard]

So for something like black IPA, does a mash pH of 5.5 play well for the hops? I can't remember if a lower mash pH is beneficial for better hop character or not.
I mashed my current black IPA at pH 5.4 according to Bru'n water and it came out wonderfully. Mashed 11oz debittered black malt for the entire 75 minute mash at 150F.

I don't expect that moving the pH to 5.5 for a hop-focused beer would be beneficial. The hops tend to get rough above 5.4. The other consideration is that black IPA seems to be only lightly focused on roast flavors and I don't think you can enhance them much.

[HoosierBrew]

The other consideration is that black IPA seems to be only lightly focused on roast flavors and I don't think you can enhance them much.

+1.  Something like Midnight Wheat has little to no roast to make acrid with lower pH in the first place.

[PORTERHAUS]

So for something like black IPA, does a mash pH of 5.5 play well for the hops? I can't remember if a lower mash pH is beneficial for better hop character or not.
I mashed my current black IPA at pH 5.4 according to Bru'n water and it came out wonderfully. Mashed 11oz debittered black malt for the entire 75 minute mash at 150F.

I don't expect that moving the pH to 5.5 for a hop-focused beer would be beneficial. The hops tend to get rough above 5.4. The other consideration is that black IPA seems to be only lightly focused on roast flavors and I don't think you can enhance them much.

I'm curious to how the mash ph effects the hops which are in the boil? Is it depending on how the mash ph carries over to effect the boil bph?

[denny]

My personal opinion is unless you find your beers astringent to forget all the extra steps. That being said I find very few beers are actually astringent today and most people who describe something as astringent don't understand astringency is a sensation, not a flavor. If you taste or smell astringency then you fall into the category of those who don't understand.

THIS^^^^

[denny]

If you think your beers improved, that's really what matters most.  I don't think you necessarily need to do a side-by-side to determine that.

Uh, yes you do...if you really want to know and not just guess.

[denny]

My personal opinion is unless you find your beers astringent to forget all the extra steps. That being said I find very few beers are actually astringent today and most people who describe something as astringent don't understand astringency is a sensation, not a flavor. If you taste or smell astringency then you fall into the category of those who don't understand.

This may sound cynical, but I think brewers sometimes think their beer tastes a certain way because of something they've read, even if that character isn't really there. The same way I think judges often misperceive certain flavors/aroma for off-flavors because it's unfamiliar to them (e.g., unique Pils malt character for DMS, UK Caramelt malt for diacetyl, etc). I could be wrong. Or just a dick

You are neither wrong nor a dick.  You're right on the money.