Author Topic: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!  (Read 8112 times)

Offline charles1968

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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #75 on: December 03, 2015, 12:03:05 AM »
Yes it is tempting to generalise, though to be fair quite a few people have raised that point in comments under the experiments and further tests have followed, e.g. the first fermentation temperature experiment (which found no perceptible difference in cold- and warm-fermented beers) was followed by two further fermentation temperature experiments using different yeasts & recipes.

Also it's easy to overlook what statistical significance means. You might reject a hypothesis but you haven't proven it's incorrect. You need to repeat tests to gain any confidence in claiming something is true or false.

I have more confidence in the tests that reject the null hypothesis (i.e. find a difference between the two beers) than the ones that don't, the reason being that wine and beer triangle tests are notorious for failing to find any difference. If you sip one beer quickly after another, the flavours of both are likely to mingle in your nose, and subtle smells can be fleeting sensations at the best of times.

Offline brulosopher

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Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #76 on: December 03, 2015, 12:37:23 AM »
But if I want to prove or disprove that mandarina is better in an APA at whirlpool than at 10 minutes, and I want to know that it's true for others not just me? Triangle test it.
Well... it wouldn't be proving anything, just providing evidence that (1) people can distinguish one from the other and (2) a particular set of drinkers prefer one over the other. Good points, regardless!
And, as much as some folks hate to hear this, science is NOT the only way to find truth.  It's a great tool, but it's never perfect.
I'm not sure what other ways there are that come anywhere close to science,  but I certainly respect others believing things I don't... as long as they're nice :)

Offline tommymorris

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Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #77 on: December 03, 2015, 02:00:06 AM »
For me homebrewing is more about "The best beer possible with the least effort possible while having the most fun possible" and "Relax don't worry have a homebrew".

I really like reading Brülosopher's exbeeriment results and listening to Denny's podcast. But, I don't want to conduct experiments myself.

In my day job, I conduct research (which is often validated with experimental results) and write long scientific papers. I don't want to do that with my hobby. I just want to drink the beer.

I will say, in my research community (@ work) there are authors I know and trust based on their body of work. When they publish a paper, I accept their results and learn from them. The same is true when reading about homebrewing online. There are many authors here I trust based on their body of work. I don't feel the need to independently verify their results.


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« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 02:03:12 AM by alestateyall »

Offline PrettyBeard

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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #78 on: December 03, 2015, 02:16:09 AM »
There are other problems with the triangle thing as well.  Something as simple as pour order can have an effect.  Besides which statistical significance may rely taking into account the range human sensual detection when factoring for your P-value.

Just as an anecdote, here's some quotes from my last beer in a competition, 2 different judges on mouthfeel:

Judge 1: "Medium bodied and very creamy, 'puffy'. No alcohol warmth."
Judge 3: "Moderately low carbonation.  Low warmth, no creaminess."

Both commented on the smokey astringency, as well.  Both were the same rank.  And that's tactile which as far as I know has a good deal less variation then taste or even smell.

FYI: It was a Dunkelweizen with about 66% wheat.  Beer was carbed, by maths, to about 3.2 volumes of CO2 (2.98 volumes of cornsugar + a spoonful of table sugar).  ABV was 6.8%.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 02:18:25 AM by PrettyBeard »

Offline tommymorris

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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #79 on: December 03, 2015, 02:29:28 AM »

For me homebrewing is more about "The best beer possible with the least effort possible while having the most fun possible" and "Relax don't worry have a homebrew".

I really like reading Brülosopher's exbeeriment results and listening to Denny's podcast. But, I don't want to conduct experiments myself.

In my day job, I conduct research (which is often validated with experimental results) and write long scientific papers. I don't want to do that with my hobby. I just want to drink the beer.

I will say, in my research community (@ work) there are authors I know and trust based on their body of work. When they publish a paper, I accept their results and learn from them. The same is true when reading about homebrewing online. There are many authors here I trust based on their body of work. I don't feel the need to independently verify their results.


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That's all well and good. I would just suggest that you sample a decent amount of the experimenter's beer before you blindly trust what they say.
I think basing trust on a body of work is not blind and not perfect but it is a system that works well for me. For instance, you posted fairly thoroughly about your attempts to brew a Munich Helles. That post and your following discussion in the same thread seemed well informed. Later you sent me some guidance via PM about brewing a Marzen. In that one you quoted several texts and made good points. Between the two, I was impressed and developed a level of respect for your comments.

I would love to try your beer, but, that's difficult. Unless you want to mail me some ;)


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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #80 on: December 03, 2015, 04:08:11 AM »
The ideal is attainable, but likely rarely repeatable at the home brew level.  Yeast are living organisms and rarely are exactly the same in different generations, so getting exactly repeatable results for homebrewers is simply beyond the means of most homebrewers. If you are willing to pursue your science to laboratory standards you may get to a level that satisfies your level of reproducible results, but I don't have the resources that I am willing to devote to this hobby.

And the fact that German trained Brewers accept my lagers as extremely good is sufficient for me.
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Offline dbeechum

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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #81 on: December 03, 2015, 05:18:28 AM »
Being the not as sciency experimenter of the podcast, all I can say is that I find the value in the experiments that are being discussed and communicated is several fold.

  • Allows advice to be based on a body of rationalized work. (e.g. I've done this as rigorously as I know how and found in a fair way this is true). Too much homebrew advice is based on a certainty and generalization of one's experiences without expressing that all of this is just on your own situation.
  • Gets people thinking analytically about their brewing (this is the big one for me)

One of the things we're hoping to get with the podcast setup the way we have is active participation. These results are only generalizable if they've been performed by multiple groups. As a systems engineer, I cringe internally when I see people take as gospel the results of a single test run. Hopefully between Marshall, Denny, myself, our IGORs, etc we'll get enough people tackling a test to see if there's validity to the results across a broader pool of brewers/tasters.

As for basing your knowledge on unblind tastings - I think Denny's objection (if I'm going to put words in my co-author's/host's mouth) is to people acting as authoritative experts without the due diligence.

When we recorded today (for publication next week), one of the things we tackled was the difference in our philosophy on repeatability. I'm not obsessed with it in the same way that Marshall and Denny are so I see these questions as interesting pieces of intellectual "huh"isms and handy to know. I don't think there's a blind triangle test in all of the world to help me design a fluffernutter beer!
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #82 on: December 03, 2015, 05:29:03 AM »
Keep up the good work, Drew.  And please provide clear citations, unlike the lurkers.
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Offline Whiskers

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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #83 on: December 03, 2015, 08:21:02 AM »
I think basing trust on a body of work is not blind and not perfect but it is a system that works well for me. For instance, you posted fairly thoroughly about your attempts to brew a Munich Helles. That post and your following discussion in the same thread seemed well informed. Later you sent me some guidance via PM about brewing a Marzen. In that one you quoted several texts and made good points. Between the two, I was impressed and developed a level of respect for your comments.

Thank you. At the end of the day we all still need to try things for ourselves and find what works to make the beer we like on our own systems.

We're all coming from different perspectives with different goals. The mantra of "The best beer possible with the least effort possible while having the most fun possible" (TBBPWTLEPWHTMFP) and those who preach it is just fine, but it's just another way of saying "Brew beer that's 90% as good as it could be with only 40% of the effort." I think 90% is more than good enough for most homebrewers, and let's be honest - it's better than what a lot of craft breweries make nowadays.

Some of us are trying to get as close to Augustiner, Westvleteren, New Glarus, Russian River, Hill Farmstead, take your pick - as we possibly can. I'm in this camp.

I want to be clear that I truly don't think there is anything at all wrong with following TBBPWTLEPWHTMFP. We all have work, family, and other obligations and it's unreasonable and wrong for everybody in the hobby to be expected to brew like the best pros in the world. A lot of people have a lot of fun brewing darn good beer at home simply, cheaply, and easily, and I really think that's great.

That said, for beer brewed on my own system, Following some of the advice en vogue on the internet has taken me further away from where I'm trying to go. Following advice found in the German brewing textbooks has gotten me closer. The problem is that trying to get to 100% involves making your process more complex, and that can be confusing to newbies and alienating to people who aren't going for 100%. I think that this is one of the major reasons why the guys who advocate TBBPWTLEPWHTMFP preach what they do. They want an inclusive communal environment, and that's respectable. I believe that this is good for the community as a whole! My one and only problem with this is that when the TBBPWTLEPWHTMFP is the zeitgeist, it becomes taboo to talk about what it takes to reach 100%, and sometimes it's even taboo to suggest that this ideal even exists. See the recent helles threads.

I would love to try your beer, but, that's difficult. Unless you want to mail me some ;)

Maybe at NHC.  :)


This is well phrased.  No reason to alienate the ones seeking the geeked out details.  Nothing wrong with RDW but nothing wrong with wanting to take things into the nitty gritty.  I'm solidly in the latter camp myself. 

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #84 on: December 03, 2015, 11:45:23 AM »
I think all approaches serve well together. If science was the best way to the exclusion of all others then by now there should be several breweries using "scientifically proven" as their marketing scheme. I prefer a start with creativity, maybe a peek at what others have done, some application of tried and true technique, maybe some tweaking technique to fit my needs, thinking about what I want, thinking about what others might want, scientifically comparing and adjusting, but in the end if no one "likes" whats in the glass, who cares? If I didnt enjoy the process, whats the point?

I dont ask my friends to prove they like the beer I poured for them.

Some of us enjoy the entertainment / pass-time of the forum stuff. Some of us like to try things and see for ourselves. Some live to share what they have learned/experienced/discovered. Some like to refute all of that.

Some people, beleive it or not, dont even know we exist...
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 11:47:16 AM by klickitat jim »

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #85 on: December 03, 2015, 01:06:32 PM »
As I write this I am in a small Bavarian town near the Czech border. I have toured a few small breweries that make excellent beer on rather primitively systems by some standards. They get yeast from other Brewers, as the don't brew enough to maintain the pitch quantities. One seed Weyermann malt, the other used base malt from a Maltster between here and Regensberg - I was not familiar with that one.

The last brewery only brews one beer - an unfiltered Dunlel. They do pretty well in competitions, with a Bronze in the last WBC, and 4 medals in the Eurostar Competition. There are pictures from the brewery tour while they were brewing on my Facebook page. The Brewery is Brāuerie Eck in Böbrach, Bayern.

My take is that the whole ingredient and procedure chain has to be correct, and you do it as you have learned on your system. The last brewery does a double decoction on a direct fired kettle, as that is the way they have been doing it, and the way his father did it.

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Offline brewday

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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #86 on: December 03, 2015, 06:25:51 PM »
As for basing your knowledge on unblind tastings - I think Denny's objection (if I'm going to put words in my co-author's/host's mouth) is to people acting as authoritative experts without the due diligence.

Since Denny's objection was directed at my comments, I find this statement to be both confusing and frustrating.  Care to clarify?
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Offline dbeechum

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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #87 on: December 03, 2015, 08:52:32 PM »

Since Denny's objection was directed at my comments, I find this statement to be both confusing and frustrating.  Care to clarify?

Hmm not trying to be unclear. My guess (and of course Denny will clarify) is that to Denny there's an objective quality to 'knowing a truth' and to him the only way to do that is to test. Without testing you only have your subjective truth and a lot of people act as experts on that basis.

But in reality this is a hobby with a lot of practices that will yield success and a lot of it is artistry. I think people get obsessed with the objective truth but that's why my form of brewing personality is different from Denny's and Marshall's and probably yours too.
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #88 on: December 03, 2015, 09:03:41 PM »

Since Denny's objection was directed at my comments, I find this statement to be both confusing and frustrating.  Care to clarify?

Hmm not trying to be unclear. My guess (and of course Denny will clarify) is that to Denny there's an objective quality to 'knowing a truth' and to him the only way to do that is to test. Without testing you only have your subjective truth and a lot of people act as experts on that basis.

But in reality this is a hobby with a lot of practices that will yield success and a lot of it is artistry. I think people get obsessed with the objective truth but that's why my form of brewing personality is different from Denny's and Marshall's and probably yours too.
Great way of putting it, objective vs subjective. Again, I think both are important. If you are seeking improvement its very helpful to analyze your beer with an objective view, but in the end the whole point of beer is purely subjective.

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Re: Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Capped At Vorlauf | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #89 on: December 03, 2015, 09:51:32 PM »

Since Denny's objection was directed at my comments, I find this statement to be both confusing and frustrating.  Care to clarify?

Hmm not trying to be unclear. My guess (and of course Denny will clarify) is that to Denny there's an objective quality to 'knowing a truth' and to him the only way to do that is to test. Without testing you only have your subjective truth and a lot of people act as experts on that basis.

But in reality this is a hobby with a lot of practices that will yield success and a lot of it is artistry. I think people get obsessed with the objective truth but that's why my form of brewing personality is different from Denny's and Marshall's and probably yours too.
Great way of putting it, objective vs subjective. Again, I think both are important. If you are seeking improvement its very helpful to analyze your beer with an objective view, but in the end the whole point of beer is purely subjective.

Yep, except for one thing.."truth" isn't subjective.  That's opinion.
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