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Author Topic: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?  (Read 25737 times)

rabeb25

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2015, 12:37:06 pm »
What about your data and conclusions that you spoke about?

See previous post.

Are you Narziss, Kai, or Kunze? You had said "I have the better data, as I have already done this.", which would lead me to believe you were going to share your actual data and conclusions, not quote the great German brewing authors.

Oh, my data. Yup, step mash is better(when done properly).

For someone complaining about faulty science, that sounds a lot more like a conclusion then it does data.

Good catch! It is conclusion, as the data already exists.. in those books.  ;)

Offline narcout

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2015, 01:51:08 pm »
Adjusted pH in 'kettle' to 5.01, 1.8mL 88% lactic

Was 5.01 the adjusted pre-boil pH?  If so, did you also measure the post-boil pH?

Looks like you can do some pretty cool stuff with that Zymatic.

any chance you can have this done before Saturday?  am brewing a marzen with a hochkurz mash profile starting at about 6am  :)

I've got the same thing planned (though I will be brewing Saturday night).
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Offline stpug

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2015, 03:50:33 pm »
Sorry rabeb. I didn't know the sh!t storm that would start simply asking for more clarification on your initial post. AND, I see exactly what you mean and agree that this does look to be more of a comparison of two different step mashes (as you've said). Once pointed out, it's clear as day, and while the ramps may be [relatively] quick, they do still pass through those enzymatically-active ranges. IMO, having these kinds of small details pointed out is a good thing for the next comparative brews someone might make.

On the flip side, the fact that you did get a bit of a backlash about your reasoning is not a total surprise to me. I think your reputation precedes you if for no other reason than the "Helles" threads of recent. I honestly thought I would get a round-about (figure it out yourself) answer, but you gave a clear and concise reasoning IMHO. Thanks.

As for amandak's beer comparison, I still think the results will be interesting to read and may spark further "testing". I, for one, am interested in hearing any differentiation that might be gleaned from the two different batches. I suspect that EVERY SINGLE ONE of Marshall_and_Co's experiments get critiqued to this level and more. He seems to have a pretty thick hide at this point :D

Offline chrifive916

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2015, 04:11:45 pm »
AmandaK - Thanks for sharing your experiment. This is the exact type of comparison I was planning to try when my zymatic shows up sometime in the future.

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Offline neddles

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2015, 09:16:50 pm »
Has anyone considered that the increased extract efficiency they get from the separate alpha rest may be a result of incomplete starch gelatinization at 145dF? I grind pretty fine and mash in a bag. I always get the efficiency bump from the alpha rest. In fact coupling this rest with an assumption of 100% conversion allows me to predict my OG spot on almost every single time. This has been consistent from thin mashed Berlinners to Denny's BVIP @1.086.

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2015, 10:07:40 pm »
Enjoyed your info, Amanda.  And you didn't blindly cite a bunch of well known texts to support a conclusion.  (See Noonan, Narziss, Bamforth, etc...)
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2015, 02:16:40 am »
Sorry rabeb. I didn't know the sh!t storm that would start simply asking for more clarification on your initial post. AND, I see exactly what you mean and agree that this does look to be more of a comparison of two different step mashes (as you've said). Once pointed out, it's clear as day, and while the ramps may be [relatively] quick, they do still pass through those enzymatically-active ranges. IMO, having these kinds of small details pointed out is a good thing for the next comparative brews someone might make.

On the flip side, the fact that you did get a bit of a backlash about your reasoning is not a total surprise to me. I think your reputation precedes you if for no other reason than the "Helles" threads of recent. I honestly thought I would get a round-about (figure it out yourself) answer, but you gave a clear and concise reasoning IMHO. Thanks.

As for amandak's beer comparison, I still think the results will be interesting to read and may spark further "testing". I, for one, am interested in hearing any differentiation that might be gleaned from the two different batches. I suspect that EVERY SINGLE ONE of Marshall_and_Co's experiments get critiqued to this level and more. He seems to have a pretty thick hide at this point :D
When I was a young whippersnapper, an old timer said it is not what you say, but how you say it. He always said controversial things with a huge grin.  ;D
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Offline majorvices

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2015, 04:23:58 am »
+1 - How you say things is hugely important. It's the difference between being "Right" and being a "Jerk". It's actually a little harder to be civil, but it makes you look a lot smarter. And it makes the world a lot nicer place to live in.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2015, 05:38:57 am »
+1 - How you say things is hugely important. It's the difference between being "Right" and being a "Jerk". It's actually a little harder to be civil, but it makes you look a lot smarter. And it makes the world a lot nicer place to live in.
And people dont summarily dismiss the content...

I ran face first into a similar situation last month. Train wreck, but rather than getting bum hurt, I poured into research... learned me a thing or two, and made the best lager I've ever made. Maybe in the top twenty best lagers ive ever tasted. I'm willing to attribute it in part at least to being rubbed the wrong way. And doing the research myself? Meh, something to do. Its all good.

But generally I agree with you fellas. If your target audience is thick skinned boys that have been in a scrape or two, by all means, have at it. But it might not always turn out so well.

Offline AmandaK

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2015, 06:34:20 am »
I wonder how much of the alleged increase in efficiency from a Hochkurz mash is system-dependent. For example, does the grain milling or design of the mash tun make the supposed benefits of a particular mash schedule on efficiency more or less probable? I know for my smaller mash tun (a two gallon cooler) I have to mash on a mid-140s/upper-150s split to get high mash efficiency and a low FG for my saisons. Mashing for the typical 153F for sixty minutes does not produce the same results. I have less of a problem on a larger ten gallon cooler. I wonder if the design of the Zymatic is inherently more efficient for mashing than coolers and other typical homebrewing equipment.

I am wondering the same.

Adam & Matt - I too wonder the same thing. I believe that tracking the conversion efficiency (please, correct me if my thought process is wrong) would be a way to compare apples to apples on that? The conversion efficiency was 91% on each batch, using Kai's (i.e. Narziss') equations. I also had Matt's system (the Sabco) but did not track conversion efficiencies there, so I can't make much speculation.

Adjusted pH in 'kettle' to 5.01, 1.8mL 88% lactic

Was 5.01 the adjusted pre-boil pH?  If so, did you also measure the post-boil pH?

Looks like you can do some pretty cool stuff with that Zymatic.

I checked my notes last night - looks like the adjustment reading was taken about 40' into the boil on one and 30' into the boil on another, both were 5.01. I also checked the pH during transfer to the carboys (5.03 & 5.02). I made the adjustment about 5-10' into the boil, but wandered off and nearly forgot to check. I have to wait for equilibrium within the system, but I probably could have taken the reading sooner.

Regardless, I am looking forward to firing off a ton more 'made for me' tests.  8)

Has anyone considered that the increased extract efficiency they get from the separate alpha rest may be a result of incomplete starch gelatinization at 145dF?

That is what happened in this data set. At the end of the 40' beta rest, the mash had not converted fully but did when the temp rose to 158F. I do wonder that if some of the efficiency increase comes from people stirring their mash bed for heating as well - something I cannot test on this system.


As to the yip-yappin':
+1 - How you say things is hugely important. It's the difference between being "Right" and being a "Jerk". It's actually a little harder to be civil, but it makes you look a lot smarter. And it makes the world a lot nicer place to live in.
And people dont summarily dismiss the content...

Amen, brothers. :) I find that many people here qualify their statements with 'I've found', 'this works on my system', or 'in my experience'. This keeps the conversations civil and moving forward. Those that state things as absolute fact or as unchallengeable truths tend to be dismissed. It's just a hobby and we are not commercial brewers - I'm sure there is room for more than one way for everyone to do things.  ;)
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rabeb25

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2015, 06:39:52 am »
+1 - How you say things is hugely important. It's the difference between being "Right" and being a "Jerk". It's actually a little harder to be civil, but it makes you look a lot smarter. And it makes the world a lot nicer place to live in.
And people dont summarily dismiss the content...

I ran face first into a similar situation last month. Train wreck, but rather than getting bum hurt, I poured into research... learned me a thing or two, and made the best lager I've ever made. Maybe in the top twenty best lagers ive ever tasted. I'm willing to attribute it in part at least to being rubbed the wrong way. And doing the research myself? Meh, something to do. Its all good.

But generally I agree with you fellas. If your target audience is thick skinned boys that have been in a scrape or two, by all means, have at it. But it might not always turn out so well.


EXACTLY my motive.  Get off your asses and to the research, its all out there. I'm not the guy that is going to rub your tummy, pat your butt, and tell you everything is going to be OK. Nor will I take your hand and lead you to the promised land.

We are all adults here, and this is where YOU make the decision, is it important enough for YOU to explore it? Why would I waste my time with some long explanation if it isn't. I can't speak in generalities, it's too complex. Now if you come to me with an example cited out of one of those books, and you tried it and want to share your results..we can talk for days (infact there is a group of us that DO exactly that.)

You guys can have all the American, British, Belgian, talk all day long, as it is of no use to me. But if you mention continental lagers, darn right my ears will perk up.

Should I add smilies to my posts, would you all feel a little more warm and fuzzy inside?  :P



Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2015, 07:14:10 am »
EXACTLY my motive.  Get off your asses and to the research, its all out there. I'm not the guy that is going to rub your tummy, pat your butt, and tell you everything is going to be OK. Nor will I take your hand and lead you to the promised land.

We are all adults here, and this is where YOU make the decision, is it important enough for YOU to explore it? Why would I waste my time with some long explanation if it isn't. I can't speak in generalities, it's too complex. Now if you come to me with an example cited out of one of those books, and you tried it and want to share your results..we can talk for days (infact there is a group of us that DO exactly that.)

You guys can have all the American, British, Belgian, talk all day long, as it is of no use to me. But if you mention continental lagers, darn right my ears will perk up.

Should I add smilies to my posts, would you all feel a little more warm and fuzzy inside?  :P


Pretty sure nobody here needs a tummy rub or smiley face. News flash - this is a brewing forum where the goal is the SHARING of info. If that's not your style, fine. But realize that your responses come across more as trolling than constructive. If the litmus test for lager commitment is buying a $200 book in German, count me out. I'll keep brewing my lagers incorrectly.  ;)

Jon H.

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2015, 07:20:15 am »
+1 - How you say things is hugely important. It's the difference between being "Right" and being a "Jerk". It's actually a little harder to be civil, but it makes you look a lot smarter. And it makes the world a lot nicer place to live in.
And people dont summarily dismiss the content...

I ran face first into a similar situation last month. Train wreck, but rather than getting bum hurt, I poured into research... learned me a thing or two, and made the best lager I've ever made. Maybe in the top twenty best lagers ive ever tasted. I'm willing to attribute it in part at least to being rubbed the wrong way. And doing the research myself? Meh, something to do. Its all good.

But generally I agree with you fellas. If your target audience is thick skinned boys that have been in a scrape or two, by all means, have at it. But it might not always turn out so well.


EXACTLY my motive.  Get off your asses and to the research, its all out there. I'm not the guy that is going to rub your tummy, pat your butt, and tell you everything is going to be OK. Nor will I take your hand and lead you to the promised land.

We are all adults here, and this is where YOU make the decision, is it important enough for YOU to explore it? Why would I waste my time with some long explanation if it isn't. I can't speak in generalities, it's too complex. Now if you come to me with an example cited out of one of those books, and you tried it and want to share your results..we can talk for days (infact there is a group of us that DO exactly that.)

You guys can have all the American, British, Belgian, talk all day long, as it is of no use to me. But if you mention continental lagers, darn right my ears will perk up.

Should I add smilies to my posts, would you all feel a little more warm and fuzzy inside?  :P
So a moderator chimes in about being civil and you respond with yet another condescending post? 
Don't let the bastards cheer you up.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2015, 07:28:57 am »
Myself having participated on both sides of being civil vs. being a jerk, I can say this: trolls get a kick out of this manner of arguing.  It's a kind of high.  It's sick and it's wrong and I recognize that and shall try to improve, as far as my own behavior goes.  There comes a time when both sides need to simply ignore the other, and move on.  That's what I suggest.

Wish us luck.
Dave

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Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Hochkurz versus 150F Mash - Is really there a difference?
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2015, 07:29:42 am »
This unfortunate tone just has me thinking of Billy Joel......

You may be right  ;D
I may be crazy   ::)
But it just may be a lunatic you're looking for  :o
It's too late to fight  >:(
It's too late to change me  >:(
You may be wrong for all I know  ;D
But you may be right  ;)


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