[rabeb25]

German schooled brewers I would guess?

It's no secret German schooled brewers can make it.. What books do you think are part of the courses

Yes sir.

I don't disagree that they follow the books from the great German authors. The problem for us hobbyists is that we don't have the time or resources to learn German to read them, or to go to school in Germany, or any other long-form method of learning that they did. Would I if I could? Absolutely. I am a beer perfectionist, similar to yourself, but I can't hope to learn all of this on my own right now.

That's why we all share information - in hopes that someone's experiences can further our own quicker than we could on our own.

Right, so what do I get because I am doing that. I have a life, full time job, children, mortgage just like everyone else. So me sitting up at night into the wee hours deciphering German brewing books, is for the good of all human kind? Making 100's (roughly 400 german lager batches alone) of batches of beer, honing in on every details. NO, I'm sorry its not. I refuse to give up my time and troubles, to people who put forth little to no effort in return(not citing any one person). I am not looking for the next book deal, or any other monetary compensation (which all these others get mind you). I am doing it because I have the passion and the wherewith all to better myself and my product(beer).
Sorry thats how I work, I am not alone either. Ask anyone from someone at Weyermann, to a brewer at a small town brewery in Bavaria, how to make "it" and see the lack of response you get. Or don't and I can show you my hundreds of empty return letters and calls. "it"'s quite elusive. 

[rabeb25]

If one person thinks he or she has all the relevant information for making a certain type of beer then I don't understand why that person would bother being on a forum like this. That brewer would have nothing to learn from us homebrewers.

You know, that made me look up and out my window off into the distance and say you are right.

[troybinso]

If one person thinks he or she has all the relevant information for making a certain type of beer then I don't understand why that person would bother being on a forum like this. That brewer would have nothing to learn from us homebrewers.

You know, that made me look up and out my window off into the distance and say you are right.

So why do you bother coming on to this forum?

[Phil_M]

I think something to remember is that everyone has this hobby for different reasons. Some want the best beer for the least effort, other don't mind going to great lengths to craft the perfect beer. Some may be in the hobby for one specific scientific aspect, be it water, yeast, etc, while others may not care at all and just want to learn how to brew a batch of beer. That's why we have forums like this, so we can find ways to fill in our knowledge on areas that don't appeal to us without having to do tons of research.

I'm working on homework for my EE classes right now, doing dynamics. I hate dynamics, it's monotonous and isn't as closely linked to my field as a circuit design class. I feel the same way about water chemistry and brewing. For now, it's monotonous and boring, and you'd have to force me to learn it at a level that I'm learning dynamics. Thankfully Martin has a great spreadsheet that takes the work out of water chemistry. But just because water chemistry makes my head hurt, doesn't make it any less fun for those who enjoy it.

[AmandaK]

It would be nice to return to respectful discussion and focus on the experiment at hand. Can we get past the sniping?

I for one am interested in the result and looking forward to Amanda's findings.

I'll post it when I got it. It'll be fun trying to find it though! Kinda like a bad game of hide and seek. 

[Phil_M]

I'll definitely be following. Different rest during the mash is something I really want to play with once I get my AG system back up and running.

[dilluh98]

So why do you bother coming on to this forum?

I agree - your attitude is quite unscientific. I know a lot of very brash scientists who come off as total a-holes about their work but at the core of it, they are still scientists and they are all willing to share their research and findings. If they weren’t willing to share with the larger community of scientists then what would they really be accomplishing?

It’s fine that you feel like you are close to cracking the code on continental lagers and think everyone else is doing it wrong but please share the details - I honestly think a lot of people would love to learn. Otherwise, either stop berating everyone who’s doing it wrong or stop posting.

[Stevie]

So why do you bother coming on to this forum?

I agree - your attitude is quite unscientific. I know a lot of very brash scientists who come off as total a-holes about their work but at the core of it, they are still scientists and they are all willing to share their research and findings. If they weren’t willing to share with the larger community of scientists then what would they really be accomplishing?

It’s fine that you feel like you are close to cracking the code on continental lagers and think everyone else is doing it wrong but please share the details - I honestly think a lot of people would love to learn. Otherwise, either stop berating everyone who’s doing it wrong or stop posting.

But you wouldn't understand. :p

[RPIScotty]

Why do I feel Ive heard all of this before?


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[denny]

Folks, we're not trying to cure cancer here...we're making beer at home.  That doesn't warrant the animosity.  Bryan, I have no doubt that all those texts have some great data for the circumstances they tested.  But those are very different circumstances than I or most other homebrewers have or care about.  I have done MANY decoction and step mashes of all types and my conclusion is that for me, they don't make any/enough difference to matter.  If you find something different in your circumstances, so be it.  But if you condescendingly tell me I don't know something that I've tested many times, then I will take exception.

See there in lies the problem, and admittedly its all mine. I am not "just trying to make beer at home", I refuse to accept that I made beer at home, and in that people can tell I made it at home attitude. I am trying to make the beer Ayinger does, and I stack my beer directly against that. If it does not pass a triple blind test, or whatever other means there is, its NOT acceptable to me. Again this is where I differ, and people who understand what that means will as well. There very dominant attitude here that I am going to go whatever is fastest, simplest and the least amount of work...Which is totally cool if that why you are here.. again I get it, its a hobby and all that. But there are some of us, who are meticulous when it comes to this, and flat out you have to be to make beers that you can test against the examples I cited. So there in lies again the problem (again mine) when I see people say hey I made this Helles with a ale yeast and it is the best, but I refuse to compare against any Continental example because its not the same. No, no you didn't. If it was as easy as that I am pretty sure I would have "stumbled" upon it in my some odd 700 batches of beer made.

The problem here, Bryan, is that you take "beer made at home" to be of lesser quailty, when that is not what I mean.  What I'm getting at is that it's just not that important...it's a freakin' hobby, dude.  Why do you suppose I don't have the same goals as you, to make a beer indistinguishable from Ayinger, for instance?  The difference is that we have different ways to go about it and you can't seem to accept that there are other approaches and other ideas about how to do it.  You seem to miss the corollary to my "best beer possible with the least effort possible while having the most fun possible".  It's that you do whatever it takes to make THE BEST BEER POSSIBLE, but you don't bother with things that don't further that goal.  I, and a lot of others, have determined for ourselves what is and isn't necessary.  And we did it by brewing and tasting, not by blindly following what a book told us.  Open your mind.

[denny]

Denny, thats not true. Actually, I 'll refrain from that right now. I would like to understand why you feel that way?

Because I'm a homebrewer who embraces different goals, equipment, and methods.

[denny]

Sadly, I do assume that as I have never heard or seen anyone able to beat one of those beers in any sort of testing, even our beloved Kai, didn't crack the code.

Those are lofty goals, good luck.

So, I assume that includes those who embrace your thinking?

[hopfenundmalz]

Wow, a lot of stuff posted on "it". I put this, the part in quotes, in another thread today. I have done my own reading on how to make Germen lagers over the last many years, as I used to live in Germany. Every now and then Mrs R and I agree that we have nailed one batch of Homebrew. I have bumped into a couple of Brewers when out and about in the last 2 weeks, and toured 2 breweries with the the Brewers there. The one at Eck was impressed with how clear a picture of my Pils was, he asked if I filtered, I said no, just 10 weeks at -1C. He can only do the natural +3C in his lagering Keller.

"As I write this I am in a small Bavarian town near the Czech border. I have toured a few small breweries that make excellent beer on rather primitively systems by some standards. They get yeast from other Brewers, as the don't brew enough to maintain the pitch quantities. One used Weyermann malt, the other used base malt from a Maltster between here and Regensberg - I was not familiar with that Maltster.

The last brewery only brews one beer - an unfiltered Dunlel. They do pretty well in competitions, with a Bronze in the last WBC, and 4 medals in the Eurostar Competition. There are pictures from the brewery tour while they were brewing on my Facebook page. The Brewery is Brāuerie Eck in Böbrach, Bayern.

My take is that the whole ingredient and procedure chain has to be correct, and you do it as you have learned on your system. The last brewery does a double decoction on a direct fired kettle, as that is the way they have been doing it, and the way his father did it."

There have been several breweries that put out so-so beer. Many really good. Then a few that were outstanding. This trip was for pleasure, my own edification, and to see parts of Bavaria that needed more days, or a first look. It has been a blast for the most part, but tomorrow we go to Wiesbaden - that is wine country. Maybe I will write the trip up for publication, but as a old retired dude, when can I find the time?

Edit. We toured Weyermann's to. Pretty impressive.

[Wort-H.O.G.]

Wow, a lot of stuff posted on "it". I put this, the part in quotes, in another thread today. I have done my own reading on how to make Germen lagers over the last many years, as I used to live in Germany. Every now and then Mrs R and I agree that we have nailed one batch of Homebrew. I have bumped into a couple of Brewers when out and about in the last 2 weeks, and toured 2 breweries with the the Brewers there. The one at Eck was impressed with how clear a picture of my Pils was, he asked if I filtered, I said no, just 10 weeks at -1C. He can only do the natural +3C in his lagering Keller.

"As I write this I am in a small Bavarian town near the Czech border. I have toured a few small breweries that make excellent beer on rather primitively systems by some standards. They get yeast from other Brewers, as the don't brew enough to maintain the pitch quantities. One used Weyermann malt, the other used base malt from a Maltster between here and Regensberg - I was not familiar with that Maltster.

The last brewery only brews one beer - an unfiltered Dunlel. They do pretty well in competitions, with a Bronze in the last WBC, and 4 medals in the Eurostar Competition. There are pictures from the brewery tour while they were brewing on my Facebook page. The Brewery is Brāuerie Eck in Böbrach, Bayern.

My take is that the whole ingredient and procedure chain has to be correct, and you do it as you have learned on your system. The last brewery does a double decoction on a direct fired kettle, as that is the way they have been doing it, and the way his father did it."

There have been several breweries that put out so-so beer. Many really good. Then a few that were outstanding. This trip was for pleasure, my own edification, and to see parts of Bavaria that needed more days, or a first look. It has been a blast for the most part, but tomorrow we go to Wiesbaden - that is wine country. Maybe I will write the trip up for publication, but as a old retired dude, when can I find the time?

Edit. We toured Weyermann's to. Pretty impressive.

That sounds awesome Jeff. Wiesbaden was right in my back yard and spect much time there ( I lived in bad kreuznach). Very envious!


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[klickitat jim]

I got caught up on this riveting thread. I felt bad for Amanda, kind of like she fixed thanksgiving dinner for us and we ransaked the place... feeling. Then I took a shower because, im just waking up and need to get ready to go make the donuts.

The thought I had, I've seen numerous times where this forum has been adamant toward people such as Marshall,  that unless you follow the exact same process, with the exact same timing, and exact same ingredients, there will always be a difference. We cheer these guys when they go to great lengths to exactly replicate those issues. Mull that over and apply it to the idea that german techniques and ingredients aren't important when trying to brew their beers as similarly as possible. I fully understand the "not enough difference for me" thinking. I'm not trying to defend or attack anyone. I'm just sharing some passing thoughts. If we should pay no attention to what german brewers do when trying to homebrew german beers, then I might suggest that we ignore what sour beer brewers are doing... throw out your oak. Ignore what west coast IPA brewers are doing... quit wasting dry hops, throw out your hop rockets hop backs and torpedos. Etc etc....