Author Topic: Lacto strains  (Read 1520 times)

Offline morticaixavier

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Lacto strains
« on: December 04, 2015, 12:48:49 AM »
I'm going to make some lacto fermented soda for the holidays as I've got a bunch of non-gluten, non-alcohol loving friends. I know some strains produce some alcohol and co2 along with lactic acid but I can't quite figure out which is which.

Originally I was going to use one of the strains that produce co2 but it seems to come along with alcohol, which makes sense given the process that produces the co2. So now I'm going to force carb after getting the tartness I want. Might even pasteurize  first.

anybody got favorite non-alcohol producing strains of lacto that they've worked with?
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Lacto strains
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2015, 05:00:35 AM »
I use wyeast 5335 L Buchneri. I dont make what you are planning. I have asked wyeast and they assure me it is not an alcohol producer. I have not noticed off gassing.

Offline Pricelessbrewing

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Re: Lacto strains
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2015, 06:05:59 AM »
Lactobacillus does not produce alcohol or ferment. If you're seeing fermentation, then some sort of contamination occurred either in the original sample or during the brewing process.

Unfortunately, whitelabs lacto strains have a reputation (especially with milk the funk members) of having sacc contamination and aren't a good reliable way of getting a pure source unless you want to re-plate them.

Offline erockrph

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Re: Lacto strains
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2015, 11:31:27 AM »
I think you'd want to stay away from the heterofermentative strains listed here:

https://foodsafety.foodscience.cornell.edu/sites/foodsafety.foodscience.cornell.edu/files/shared/documents/CU-DFScience-Notes-Dairy-Cultures-HomoHeteroferm-10-08.pdf

The ones that jump out relative to sour beer brewing are L. brevis and L. plantarium (I'm not sure whether any yeast labs use this one, but it's commonly used in probiotic supplements and can be used to sour wort).
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Lacto strains
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2015, 11:35:51 AM »
Lactobacillus does not produce alcohol or ferment. If you're seeing fermentation, then some sort of contamination occurred either in the original sample or during the brewing process.

Unfortunately, whitelabs lacto strains have a reputation (especially with milk the funk members) of having sacc contamination and aren't a good reliable way of getting a pure source unless you want to re-plate them.
There are many strains of lactobacillus which absolutely can produce ethanol on their own. They are called heterofermentative strains (as opposed to homofermentative strains, which only produce lactic acid). Production of alcohol and CO2 by a lacto species is not a sign of contamination unless you are 100% sure that it is a homofermentative strain.
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Offline kramerog

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Re: Lacto strains
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2015, 03:53:41 PM »
It doesn't seem likely that you'll find a lacto strain that produces CO2 and lactic acid but not alcohol.  Here's why:

C6H12O6 -> 2 C3H6O3  -> 2C2H6O  + 2 CO2
glucose        lactic acid        ethanol      carbon dioxide

My background is chemical engineering, not microbiology, but production of CO2 from sugar by fermentation requires production of ethanol.  Perhaps there are other pathways to produce CO2.

If you find something, please let us know.

Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Lacto strains
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2015, 04:34:09 PM »
It doesn't seem likely that you'll find a lacto strain that produces CO2 and lactic acid but not alcohol.  Here's why:

C6H12O6 -> 2 C3H6O3  -> 2C2H6O  + 2 CO2
glucose        lactic acid        ethanol      carbon dioxide

My background is chemical engineering, not microbiology, but production of CO2 from sugar by fermentation requires production of ethanol.  Perhaps there are other pathways to produce CO2.

If you find something, please let us know.

I think you are right. This time around I'm going to force carb in the keg and transfer to bottles from there. I just like the lacto flavor.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Lacto strains
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2015, 04:41:19 PM »
It doesn't seem likely that you'll find a lacto strain that produces CO2 and lactic acid but not alcohol.  Here's why:

C6H12O6 -> 2 C3H6O3  -> 2C2H6O  + 2 CO2
glucose        lactic acid        ethanol      carbon dioxide

My background is chemical engineering, not microbiology, but production of CO2 from sugar by fermentation requires production of ethanol.  Perhaps there are other pathways to produce CO2.

If you find something, please let us know.

Here's more detail than I ever wish to assimilate on this  ;D :

http://textbookofbacteriology.net/lactics_2.html
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Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Lacto strains
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2015, 07:14:59 PM »
You want any of the homofermentive strains like delbruckii or acidophilus but you need to make sure you get a pure source otherwise any yeast showing up will produce ethanol. Acidophilus is more hardy than delbruckii and you can easily find it in probiotic pills but you want to use a reputable provider to minimize the risk of yeast-infected pills.
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Offline Pricelessbrewing

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Re: Lacto strains
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2015, 07:25:08 PM »
You want any of the homofermentive strains like delbruckii or acidophilus but you need to make sure you get a pure source otherwise any yeast showing up will produce ethanol. Acidophilus is more hardy than delbruckii and you can easily find it in probiotic pills but you want to use a reputable provider to minimize the risk of yeast-infected pills.

Also plantarum is a nice strain to find in pill form as a probiotic. Swanson carries them I know, amazon has them for just a couple bucks.

Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Lacto strains
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2015, 05:47:47 AM »
You want any of the homofermentive strains like delbruckii or acidophilus but you need to make sure you get a pure source otherwise any yeast showing up will produce ethanol. Acidophilus is more hardy than delbruckii and you can easily find it in probiotic pills but you want to use a reputable provider to minimize the risk of yeast-infected pills.

Also plantarum is a nice strain to find in pill form as a probiotic. Swanson carries them I know, amazon has them for just a couple bucks.

But heterofermentive so it will produce ethanol.
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Offline neddles

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Re: Lacto strains
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2015, 06:11:52 AM »
Omega yeast lacto blend is plantarum and brevis. I dont know about ethanol but it will sour and produce lactic acid at room temp with no problem. That is how they promote it and that is what my experience was. My n=1.

Offline Pricelessbrewing

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Re: Lacto strains
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2015, 09:31:18 AM »
You want any of the homofermentive strains like delbruckii or acidophilus but you need to make sure you get a pure source otherwise any yeast showing up will produce ethanol. Acidophilus is more hardy than delbruckii and you can easily find it in probiotic pills but you want to use a reputable provider to minimize the risk of yeast-infected pills.

Also plantarum is a nice strain to find in pill form as a probiotic. Swanson carries them I know, amazon has them for just a couple bucks.

But heterofermentive so it will produce ethanol.


Sure if you consider < 0.3 abv sufficient to claim it produces ethanol... Lacto does not,  and cannot attenuate wort to any meaningful degree,  controlled conditions have shown that ethanol production from lacto is less than 0.3 abv at the very most.  Anything beyond that is certainly due to contamination from yeast.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=538153&page=

http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/100-lactobacillus-fermentations-cannot-achieve-complete-attenuation-test-results-included.316488/

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Re: Lacto strains
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2015, 05:44:05 PM »
Lactobacillus does not produce alcohol or ferment. If you're seeing fermentation, then some sort of contamination occurred either in the original sample or during the brewing process.

Like yeast, Lactobaccillus is facultative anaerobe, which means that it will metabolize carbon in the presence and absence of O2.  Anaerobic metabolism is fermentation. 

Offline danpixley

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Re: Lacto strains
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2016, 07:16:28 PM »
Another relevant link, courtesy of Lance Shaner from Omega Yeast Labs: http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/100%25_Lactobacillus_Fermentation
Milk The Funk Wiki Editor - http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki