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Author Topic: Hochkurz vs 150F - The 'play nice' thread  (Read 19960 times)

Offline AmandaK

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Re: Hochkurz vs 150F - The 'play nice' thread
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2015, 08:50:36 pm »
Out of curiosity how long does it take to ramp from one temp to another on the Zymatic?

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Original post says 1.9*F per minute.
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Hochkurz vs 150F - The 'play nice' thread
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2015, 08:51:36 pm »
Amanda,
Ive tapped mine. In about 4 or 5 days, once they've adjusted, I'll bottle up samples to ship to the 3 wise men.

Personal thoughts? I don't know. I'm so critical of my own beers,  one day I can think they are awesome,  the next I think its just run of the mill. I'm reserving nailing down what I think till I get outside confirmation. If I was forced to decide right now, im leaning toward ingredients selection playing a much more important part, and hochurz may be more about fun and esotericly adherence to traditional methods.

Offline chezteth

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Re: Hochkurz vs 150F - The 'play nice' thread
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2015, 08:56:36 pm »
Thanks, I overlooked that. :-)

RPIScotty

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Re: Hochkurz vs 150F - The 'play nice' thread
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2015, 06:49:46 am »
I'm going to modify my mash for my next batch using Dave's 40 minute time and a fairly generic step regimen. I've been stepping mashes in the past but not using only 40 minutes.

I'm thinking:

133'F -> 5 min
148'F -> 23 min
156'F -> 8 min
Mash out -> 4 min

Just want to try it out and see how goes it.


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Offline denny

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Re: Hochkurz vs 150F - The 'play nice' thread
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2015, 08:52:24 am »
Is the Z programmable? It would be great to manipulate the software.

I'll PM you so as not to derail any further.  ;)

Wel,, I don't cars about that...yeah, it's programmable....that's the whole point.  To Amanda's comment about the recipe creator software, they're working on it.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Hochkurz vs 150F - The 'play nice' thread
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2015, 08:53:54 am »
I'm going to modify my mash for my next batch using Dave's 40 minute time and a fairly generic step regimen. I've been stepping mashes in the past but not using only 40 minutes.

I'm thinking:

133'F -> 5 min
148'F -> 23 min
156'F -> 8 min
Mash out -> 4 min

Just want to try it out and see how goes it.

Holy cow, I've never done anything quite like that.  I very rarely do any step mashes.  Very interesting!  I'll bet it turns out just great like a million bucks.  Keep me posted!
Dave

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RPIScotty

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Re: Hochkurz vs 150F - The 'play nice' thread
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2015, 09:47:55 am »

I'm going to modify my mash for my next batch using Dave's 40 minute time and a fairly generic step regimen. I've been stepping mashes in the past but not using only 40 minutes.

I'm thinking:

133'F -> 5 min
148'F -> 23 min
156'F -> 8 min
Mash out -> 4 min

Just want to try it out and see how goes it.

Holy cow, I've never done anything quite like that.  I very rarely do any step mashes.  Very interesting!  I'll bet it turns out just great like a million bucks.  Keep me posted!

I want to couple it to a short boil as well.


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Offline JT

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Re: Hochkurz vs 150F - The 'play nice' thread
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2015, 09:55:21 am »
Thanks for reposting this Amanda, Hochkurz is on my list of things to try. 

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Offline AmandaK

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Re: Hochkurz vs 150F - The 'play nice' thread
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2015, 09:57:12 am »
I'm going to modify my mash for my next batch using Dave's 40 minute time and a fairly generic step regimen. I've been stepping mashes in the past but not using only 40 minutes.

I'm thinking:

133'F -> 5 min
148'F -> 23 min
156'F -> 8 min
Mash out -> 4 min

Just want to try it out and see how goes it.

Will you be doing this on a recipe you've brewed before? I would be curious if you get similar conversion efficiencies on the different mashes.
Amanda Burkemper
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BJCP Grand Master/Mead/Cider


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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Hochkurz vs 150F - The 'play nice' thread
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2015, 10:07:36 am »
Will you be doing this on a recipe you've brewed before? I would be curious if you get similar conversion efficiencies on the different mashes.

Efficiency is nothing, no problem.  ATTENUATION is the variable to pay attention to.  In my experience.
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

RPIScotty

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Hochkurz vs 150F - The 'play nice' thread
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2015, 10:10:59 am »
Will you be doing this on a recipe you've brewed before? I would be curious if you get similar conversion efficiencies on the different mashes.

Efficiency is nothing, no problem.  ATTENUATION is the variable to pay attention to.  In my experience.

You hit it on the head Dave. Attenuation is the variable if like to play with. With 1 gal batches it's no big deal to throw grain at an efficiency issue. I'm definitely more worried about attenuation.

I'm going to try it on my original BDSA recipe.


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Offline AmandaK

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Re: Hochkurz vs 150F - The 'play nice' thread
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2015, 10:27:26 am »
Y'all are preachin' to the choir about brewhouse efficiency. I'm around 60-62% brewhouse efficiency on the Z and I'm not trying to change that.

I was only curious if the mash would even fully convert in that short of a time (i.e. conversion efficiency). I would venture to guess yes, but I don't know that for sure.

Obviously attenuation is much more important - you certainly can't taste efficiency!  ;)
Amanda Burkemper
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BJCP Grand Master/Mead/Cider


Our Homebrewed Wedding, AHA Article

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Hochkurz vs 150F - The 'play nice' thread
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2015, 10:41:19 am »
Y'all are preachin' to the choir about brewhouse efficiency. I'm around 60-62% brewhouse efficiency on the Z and I'm not trying to change that.

I was only curious if the mash would even fully convert in that short of a time (i.e. conversion efficiency). I would venture to guess yes, but I don't know that for sure.

Obviously attenuation is much more important - you certainly can't taste efficiency!  ;)


All of this. I'm a lot more worried about consistent efficiency (as much as I can control, with big beers usually being different) than some arbitrary number.
Jon H.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Hochkurz vs 150F - The 'play nice' thread
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2015, 11:41:03 am »
I was only curious if the mash would even fully convert in that short of a time (i.e. conversion efficiency). I would venture to guess yes, but I don't know that for sure.

Actually I think the answer is no; HOWEVER, I also find 40 minutes to be a sort of magical point of diminishing returns, beyond which, you don't really gain enough efficiency to give a crap, or at least, I don't personally.  Can you get a few more points out by mashing much longer?  Sure you can.  Does it matter?  That's a question that each individual needs to answer for himself/herself.

Obviously attenuation is much more important - you certainly can't taste efficiency!  ;)

Ah.... but can't you?!  Again, more experiments are needed!  I've been meaning to run such an experiment for a long time, but haven't gotten around to it yet.
Dave

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Online mabrungard

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Re: Hochkurz vs 150F - The 'play nice' thread
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2015, 11:55:59 am »
I too have come to conclusion that high system efficiency is not a good or worthwhile goal.

I started monitoring mashing efficiency (measured by undiluted wort gravity from mash and compared to theoretical gravity calculated for the water/grist ratio) and found that I get a little over 100% when compared to Kai's efficiency chart (he apparently used a conservative assumption in creating the chart). So my mashing performance is great. However, its the extraction and transfer of that sugar content from the tun to the kettle (system efficiency) that is problematic for me.

Since getting my own mill, I've noted that my system efficiency has been pretty high (82 to 90 percent). Most would say: "Great". But I found that my beer quality actually suffered a bit. I chased a tannin problem for half a year and finally determined that I needed to avoid putting too much of my sparging water through the mash bed. Now I reserve a good 1 to 1.5 gal of sparging water and only add that remaining water directly to the kettle as needed to meet my pre-boil volume (5.5 gal batch size). That improved the quality, but I'm not sure that I'm where I want my beers to be.

At this point, I'm probably going to bump that amount of reserved sparging water up (less of the calculated sparging water will go into the tun) and just live with the reduced system efficiency. I think better beer is made with lower efficiency. So Dave's comment to worry less about efficiency and more about attenuation is exactly the way I feel too.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 11:57:32 am by mabrungard »
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