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Author Topic: bicarbonates in water  (Read 5953 times)

Offline PrettyBeard

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Re: bicarbonates in water
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2015, 09:06:41 pm »
I don't really blame you for that.  There was a big surge here but the one dimensional sourness is pretty boring to me.  I don't care for Berliner Weisse much either.

It was a better summer beer then the various shandies to me.  August Schell, did wonders with there's though. A bit out of place now though, even though we still don't have a proper winter in the Northlands yet.

Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: bicarbonates in water
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2015, 03:08:11 am »
Last year when I was in Germany for the weekend I bought a couple of bottles of Berliner Weisse just to show how broadminded I am. All "mit Schuss". Horrible stuff.
Frank P.

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Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: bicarbonates in water
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2015, 04:01:44 am »
I did a quick calculation in Bru'nwater: for a yellow balanced profile and 180 ppm bicarbonates in my water, I would get 240 ppm lactate when I aim for a 5.40 pH. So that's still quite within acceptable levels?
Frank P.

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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: bicarbonates in water
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2015, 05:26:20 am »
I dont know squat but figured out enough to do what I need to do. My water is 17 Ca 10 Mg 8 Na 0 CaCl 0 SO4 107 CO3 7.8 ph.

I usually add CaCl or SO4 depending on style until I'm at 25-75 Ca. I use lactic for ph correction. In my lightest color lowest gravity beer, which I mash at 5.5 ph, I end up adding a total of 9ml 88% lactic divided as needed to mash and sparge. 6 gallon batches by the way. Thats the most lactic I ever add, much more and I would consider switching to phosphoric. But I dont detect any tartness or lactic flavor in my helles (nor have several judges)... for whatever thats worth. That beer recently got another dose of 7ml lactic 88% in preboil to drop the ph to 5.0 and still not tartness or lactic flavor detected. Jury still out though. Im sending it to 3 master or grand master judges very soon. If they all detect lactic I will change my tune.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2015, 05:29:53 am by klickitat jim »

Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: bicarbonates in water
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2015, 05:46:47 am »
If you are using Bru'nwater, could you check the lactate ppm? It's on the Adjustment Summary page, under the table.
Frank P.

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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: bicarbonates in water
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2015, 05:48:37 am »
If you are using Bru'nwater, could you check the lactate ppm? It's on the Adjustment Summary page, under the table.
Brewers Friend... I'll look

Offline Lazy Ant Brewing

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Re: bicarbonates in water
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2015, 05:52:32 am »
  Maybe it's because back in the day I had to work with ClF3 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_trifluoride), and that gave me a more then healthy fear of inorganic compounds.

Reply to PrettyBeard:

While I don't know enough to comment on the amounts and different acids for brewing, I was struck by your comment regarding your distrust of inorganic compounds. 

Organic compounds can be just as dangerous.  All venomous snakes have organic toxins and one wouldn't want to eat the wrong mushroom. Just because a compound is organic does not make it safe.

Anyway, I enjoy the discussion and have a great day.
It's easier to get information from the forum than to sacrifice virgins to appease the brewing gods when bad beer happens!

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: bicarbonates in water
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2015, 06:08:20 am »
If you are using Bru'nwater, could you check the lactate ppm? It's on the Adjustment Summary page, under the table.
Ok, I dug it up. Im not seeing anything about lactate.

But, I changed my recipe just a tad for my next brew day (tuesday) subbing half pound carapils in for a half pound pils, and bumped the vienna up by a half pound, so I had to rerun my water. It now comes out to 8ml lactic instead of 9ml. Crazy...

Anyway, the calculator says its the equivalent of using 6% acid malt. I think Troester recommends keeping it to 4% of the grain bill. But thats probably conservative and well below the typical flavor threshold. I think youd have to be some kind of super taster doing a blind triangle to detect the difference, if then.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: bicarbonates in water
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2015, 06:38:05 am »
10ml for me in 5gal was super noticeable. I wasn't looking for it being the issue, just came to realization what was causing the twang I got through the this forum. Stopped using my well water and subsequently the high doses of lactic, and it was clearly gone.


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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: bicarbonates in water
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2015, 06:50:02 am »
10ml for me in 5gal was super noticeable. I wasn't looking for it being the issue, just came to realization what was causing the twang I got through the this forum. Stopped using my well water and subsequently the high doses of lactic, and it was clearly gone.


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I'm certainly not selling the idea and may just be in for a learning experience. Having said that, I just had a glass of the 9ml helles plus preboil kettle acid... I'm not getting it. Taste is malt fwd, light mittelfruh flavor, clean finish. Maybe a bit thin, but much better than last years version. Chomping at the bit now to see what real judges think.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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bicarbonates in water
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2015, 06:57:00 am »
10ml for me in 5gal was super noticeable. I wasn't looking for it being the issue, just came to realization what was causing the twang I got through the this forum. Stopped using my well water and subsequently the high doses of lactic, and it was clearly gone.


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I'm certainly not selling the idea and may just be in for a learning experience. Having said that, I just had a glass of the 9ml helles plus preboil kettle acid... I'm not getting it. Taste is malt fwd, light mittelfruh flavor, clean finish. Maybe a bit thin, but much better than last years version. Chomping at the bit now to see what real judges think.

Yeah don't get me wrong. Not suggesting your perceptions aren't what they are. Like anything, everyones senses tend to be different.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: bicarbonates in water
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2015, 07:08:17 am »
10ml for me in 5gal was super noticeable. I wasn't looking for it being the issue, just came to realization what was causing the twang I got through the this forum. Stopped using my well water and subsequently the high doses of lactic, and it was clearly gone.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I'm certainly not selling the idea and may just be in for a learning experience. Having said that, I just had a glass of the 9ml helles plus preboil kettle acid... I'm not getting it. Taste is malt fwd, light mittelfruh flavor, clean finish. Maybe a bit thin, but much better than last years version. Chomping at the bit now to see what real judges think.

Yeah don't get me wrong. Not suggesting your perceptions aren't what they are. Like anything, everyones senses tend to be different.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
No, I get what you're laying down. I have no idea if I'm right or wrong. Yet. I suspect it may depend on the style, the actual grist, hopping, and a lot of other things. My use of zero SO4 and only the bare minimum CaCl may also play into it on that beer.

It might be a fun cheap quick test to scale it down to like 1ml lactic in a gallon of distilled. Then do a blind triangle against plain distilled. I suspect we would detect it. But how much? if its fairly subtle it would be easy to imagine whether or not beer would hide it.

Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: bicarbonates in water
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2015, 07:30:24 am »
Does anyone know how to calculate the ml->ppm conversion? If I add 6.88 ml lactic acid @88% to 17 liters of water, I get 356 ppm. But Bru'nwater says it's 267 ppm lactate.
Frank P.

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Offline toby

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Re: bicarbonates in water
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2015, 08:27:26 am »
I don't really blame you for that.  They started popping up all over the place in the US but the one dimensional sourness is pretty boring to me.  I don't care for Berliner Weisse much either.

I'm not a big fan either, honestly, but it's a really good showcase for what lactic twang tastes like if you drink it straight without syrups.

Offline mabrungard

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Re: bicarbonates in water
« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2015, 09:20:48 am »
I don't really blame you for that.  They started popping up all over the place in the US but the one dimensional sourness is pretty boring to me.  I don't care for Berliner Weisse much either.

I'm not a big fan either, honestly, but it's a really good showcase for what lactic twang tastes like if you drink it straight without syrups.

Ah! It doesn't sound like some have found some of the complex Berliner's I've had. While lactic acid tends to be the dominant flavor component, it is not the only acid nor the only flavor. I have experienced some of those one-dimensional, single species, lactic acid ferments that you can buy from the yeast suppliers and I agree that they are not worth drinking. However, when a complex array of microbes are used to sour the wort, I find that you do get far more complex and pleasing flavor. One of the secondary acids will be acetic acid and there are probably many others in the beer when a mixed ferment is employed.

While the hand-full of grain innoculation sometimes gets a bad rap due to extreme funkiness or nastiness, when you perform that innoculation properly, it can be wonderful. One trick to helping assure better success is to acidify your raw wort down to a pH of lower than 4.5 so that the real funky/nasty organisms can't succeed. That gives all the other acid producers a great opportunity to outcompete the nasties and give you a good, clean, soured result.

Don't dis a well-made Berliner!
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