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Author Topic: Low temp whirlpool  (Read 6463 times)

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2015, 11:17:32 am »
One question I have is, how long are you looking at at that time for best extraction? I'm assuming that, like most things, you need to go longer at lower temps. I'm typically in the 60 minute range at 170-200F. Dry hops take a couple days at room temp. So are we talking hours here?
I use 30min at 170 and get plenty of flavor out of 100g. I dont know how much more I could gain by going longer. I do this because it works and its not too much hops cost wise, or too much time waste for me. I dont know what optimal is but this tends to get the job done in a reasonable time and reasonable cost.

I also dont know the optimal time for 120. The idea is to replace some of the lower temp volatiles that 170 boils off. I suspect those come out of the hops fairly rapidly. I dont plan to hold temp at 120. Once my 170 rest is done I will turn the chiller water back on and when the dial is approaching 120 I'll toss in 40g and just keep on chilling. At pitching temp I kill the water and pump and let it settle for about 20 min then rack.

So this 120 charge will be in for about 30 minutes total, temps from 120-65. Will some get blown off by fermentation?  Sure. Will all of it? I doubt it. In theory this extra charge at 120 should increase aroma in the final beer at the expense of about $2 and no extra time or effect on clarity. We shall see.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 11:19:16 am by klickitat jim »

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2015, 12:22:31 pm »
Honestly, I wouldn't give it more than a 5 minute steep @ 120F. Aroma gets released pretty quickly IMO once the pellets dissolve. If I were looking for a lot of flavor at that temp it would take quite a bit longer obviously. It's only been in recent years at the home level (pre hop stand) that most hop aroma came at anything other than flameout with no steep at all. I think I'll experiment with it.
Jon H.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2015, 12:30:36 pm »
When im chilling, my temp is dropping about 50% per ~90 seconds. So when I add at 120 it will be at about 90 in 90 seconds, about 75 in another 90, and about 65 in another 90. So roughly 5-10 minutes to get from 120-65. Then another 20 minutes for settling

Offline Stevie

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Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2015, 12:33:23 pm »
Isn't there some concern with letting the wort sit too long in the kettle at such a low temp? Mark V can confirm, but that temp is asking for bacteria growth at a pretty high rate. A proper fitting lid and low air movement would certainly be required.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2015, 12:41:49 pm »
I'm thinking I'll try just treating it as an old school flameout addition and just add @ 120F as I cool, no steep. Truthfully, I get more than enough aroma with a 175-170F stand and sometimes dry hopping. Just curious to try. 
Jon H.

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2015, 12:41:56 pm »
Isn't there some concern with letting the wort sit too long in the kettle at such a low temp? Mark V can confirm, but that temp is asking for bacteria growth at a pretty high rate. A proper fitting lid and low air movement would certainly be required.

I could be wrong, but I don't see bacteria growing that quickly.  I do understand that the boil does not kill off everything, but as long as a decent healthy, viable pitch is completed in a reasonable amount of time, the yeast should "own" that wort pretty quickly.

Offline charles1968

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Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2015, 01:24:16 pm »
One question I have is, how long are you looking at at that time for best extraction? I'm assuming that, like most things, you need to go longer at lower temps. I'm typically in the 60 minute range at 170-200F. Dry hops take a couple days at room temp. So are we talking hours here?
I use 30min at 170 and get plenty of flavor out of 100g. I dont know how much more I could gain by going longer. I do this because it works and its not too much hops cost wise, or too much time waste for me. I dont know what optimal is but this tends to get the job done in a reasonable time and reasonable cost.

I also dont know the optimal time for 120. The idea is to replace some of the lower temp volatiles that 170 boils off. I suspect those come out of the hops fairly rapidly. I dont plan to hold temp at 120. Once my 170 rest is done I will turn the chiller water back on and when the dial is approaching 120 I'll toss in 40g and just keep on chilling. At pitching temp I kill the water and pump and let it settle for about 20 min then rack.

So this 120 charge will be in for about 30 minutes total, temps from 120-65. Will some get blown off by fermentation?  Sure. Will all of it? I doubt it. In theory this extra charge at 120 should increase aroma in the final beer at the expense of about $2 and no extra time or effect on clarity. We shall see.

I recommend stirring vigorously at the lower temp rather than letting the hop debris settle. Chemical and physical changes happen faster with agitation (hence purpose of rolling boil). Hop backs depend on flow to work. Stirring also gets a bit of oxygen into the wort.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2015, 01:54:24 pm »
One question I have is, how long are you looking at at that time for best extraction? I'm assuming that, like most things, you need to go longer at lower temps. I'm typically in the 60 minute range at 170-200F. Dry hops take a couple days at room temp. So are we talking hours here?
I use 30min at 170 and get plenty of flavor out of 100g. I dont know how much more I could gain by going longer. I do this because it works and its not too much hops cost wise, or too much time waste for me. I dont know what optimal is but this tends to get the job done in a reasonable time and reasonable cost.

I also dont know the optimal time for 120. The idea is to replace some of the lower temp volatiles that 170 boils off. I suspect those come out of the hops fairly rapidly. I dont plan to hold temp at 120. Once my 170 rest is done I will turn the chiller water back on and when the dial is approaching 120 I'll toss in 40g and just keep on chilling. At pitching temp I kill the water and pump and let it settle for about 20 min then rack.

So this 120 charge will be in for about 30 minutes total, temps from 120-65. Will some get blown off by fermentation?  Sure. Will all of it? I doubt it. In theory this extra charge at 120 should increase aroma in the final beer at the expense of about $2 and no extra time or effect on clarity. We shall see.

I recommend stirring vigorously at the lower temp rather than letting the hop debris settle. Chemical and physical changes happen faster with agitation (hence purpose of rolling boil). Hop backs depend on flow to work. Stirring also gets a bit of oxygen into the wort.
I dont stir at all, this is done with a pump and tangential.  Actual whirlpooling. Some give the pot a stir and walk away calling it whirlpool... thats not what I do. At 10 minutes before flame out I turn on my pump and the pump runs a continuous whirlpool until I reach pitching temp. Including during the 170F rest for 30 min. Pump still running, actively whirlpooling.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 01:56:32 pm by klickitat jim »

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2015, 01:57:38 pm »
FWIW I stir thoroughly every few minutes during the steep since I don't have a pump. Works pretty well for me - my beers don't get accused of being light on hop flavor/aroma.
Jon H.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2015, 02:08:20 pm »
By the way, this has spurred an IGOR experiment on experimentalbew.com  I think the true test would be identical APAs, one with traditional dry hopping, and the other with its dry hops put in at 120 whirlpool. My question would be Does the difference in aroma justify the improved clarity and reduced risk of oxydation.

Then, the two beers should be stored at room temp for 3 months and retested blind.

Offline charles1968

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Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2015, 02:14:05 pm »
I dont stir at all, this is done with a pump and tangential.  Actual whirlpooling. Some give the pot a stir and walk away calling it whirlpool... thats not what I do. At 10 minutes before flame out I turn on my pump and the pump runs a continuous whirlpool until I reach pitching temp. Including during the 170F rest for 30 min. Pump still running, actively whirlpooling.

I call that stirring. Probably better than doing it by hand every few minutes.

Offline charles1968

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Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2015, 02:18:04 pm »
I think the true test would be identical APAs, one with traditional dry hopping, and the other with its dry hops put in at 120 whirlpool.

Yes it would be great to know if there's a way of avoiding the mess, haze and beer loss caused by dry hopping.

Offline erockrph

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Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2015, 02:59:41 pm »
I think the true test would be identical APAs, one with traditional dry hopping, and the other with its dry hops put in at 120 whirlpool.

Yes it would be great to know if there's a way of avoiding the mess, haze and beer loss caused by dry hopping.
Agreed. I didn't think of this as away to potentially replace dry hopping at first, but that would be a boon to me if it could. At the hopping levels I use I've had issues with some harsh beers that I attribute to fine dry hop particles that stay in suspension. I have the ability to filter this pretty well prior to fermentation, but I'm not keen on spending the money for a filter rig and filters for 2.5 gallon batches.

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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2015, 03:47:07 pm »
I dont fantasize that this method will ever compete with massive dry hopping as far as sheer fresh hop aroma goes. The idea is that it might produce sufficient hop aroma while maintaining clarity and reducing risk of oxydation. Kind of the same way that an all weather tire will never beat the best rain tires, or the best snow tires, or the best whatever. For those who do not care about clarity or stability and only want super aroma even if it only lasts a couple weeks... I'm not trying to compete against that.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2015, 04:00:55 pm »
I dont fantasize that this method will ever compete with massive dry hopping as far as sheer fresh hop aroma goes. The idea is that it might produce sufficient hop aroma while maintaining clarity and reducing risk of oxydation. Kind of the same way that an all weather tire will never beat the best rain tires, or the best snow tires, or the best whatever. For those who do not care about clarity or stability and only want super aroma even if it only lasts a couple weeks... I'm not trying to compete against that.
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