Membership questions? Log in issues? Email info@brewersassociation.org

Author Topic: Low temp whirlpool  (Read 6462 times)

Offline klickitat jim

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8604
Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2015, 04:08:08 pm »
I dont fantasize that this method will ever compete with massive dry hopping as far as sheer fresh hop aroma goes. The idea is that it might produce sufficient hop aroma while maintaining clarity and reducing risk of oxydation. Kind of the same way that an all weather tire will never beat the best rain tires, or the best snow tires, or the best whatever. For those who do not care about clarity or stability and only want super aroma even if it only lasts a couple weeks... I'm not trying to compete against that.
You forgot chains.  8)
Thats what I have you for

Offline HoosierBrew

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 13031
  • Indianapolis,IN
Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2015, 04:19:44 pm »
I dont fantasize that this method will ever compete with massive dry hopping as far as sheer fresh hop aroma goes. The idea is that it might produce sufficient hop aroma while maintaining clarity and reducing risk of oxydation. Kind of the same way that an all weather tire will never beat the best rain tires, or the best snow tires, or the best whatever. For those who do not care about clarity or stability and only want super aroma even if it only lasts a couple weeks... I'm not trying to compete against that.


I mostly agree with what you're saying, Jim. Whirlpool hopping is a great way to get flavor and some good aroma, and can reduce the need to dry hop as much (or at all some styles). I get the clarity argument, but not sure I agree that dry hopping carries a large risk of oxidizing your beer. A lot of pretty good breweries dry hop and don't ruin their beer. And dry hopping after crashing or fining can lengthen the amount of time the aroma sticks around IMO.  Regardless, at the end of the day we all brew the way that we like and that's awesome.
Jon H.

Offline Philbrew

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 867
Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2015, 04:34:55 pm »
I think the true test would be identical APAs, one with traditional dry hopping, and the other with its dry hops put in at 120 whirlpool.

Yes it would be great to know if there's a way of avoiding the mess, haze and beer loss caused by dry hopping.
I got brilliant clarity and super aroma and flavor the one time that I've tried dry hopping.  I had 4 gal. left over from a 6 gal. batch of very low IBU rye ale.  (2 gal. went to experimental fruit ales for my daughter.)  I kegged the 4 gal. and tossed in 2 oz. of Cascade (leaf)* in a fine mesh bag.  Put it in the kegerater to carb up.  A week later it was tasty and a little hazy.  After another week it was crystal clear and super citrusy.  I did gelatin fining two days before kegging.

*Could it be that leaf hops rather than pellet is the key to dry hop clarity?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 04:40:32 pm by Philbrew »
Many of us would be on a strict liquid diet if it weren't for pretzels.

Offline klickitat jim

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8604
Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2015, 04:55:43 pm »
I dont fantasize that this method will ever compete with massive dry hopping as far as sheer fresh hop aroma goes. The idea is that it might produce sufficient hop aroma while maintaining clarity and reducing risk of oxydation. Kind of the same way that an all weather tire will never beat the best rain tires, or the best snow tires, or the best whatever. For those who do not care about clarity or stability and only want super aroma even if it only lasts a couple weeks... I'm not trying to compete against that.


I mostly agree with what you're saying, Jim. Whirlpool hopping is a great way to get flavor and some good aroma, and can reduce the need to dry hop as much (or at all some styles). I get the clarity argument, but not sure I agree that dry hopping carries a large risk of oxidizing your beer. A lot of pretty good breweries dry hop and don't ruin their beer. And dry hopping after crashing or fining can lengthen the amount of time the aroma sticks around IMO.  Regardless, at the end of the day we all brew the way that we like and that's awesome.
I dont think there's a large risk either. Less risk with pellets than cones probably. But if some people fear cold crashing because negative pressure might pull in some air, then there's probably some people who would fear that 2oz of cones per gallon might introduce some oxygen. I'd say that dry hopping probably introduces some oxygen, but not willing to declare that it will always cause this or that. If this method ends up working, oxidation will only be a second or third reason to use it.

Offline klickitat jim

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8604
Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2015, 09:16:44 pm »
I'm going to give this a try tomorrow after I get my Helles Exportbier in the fermenter. Second brew is going to be my attempt at a beer that Eric sent me for Swaptoberfest.

Märzen meets AAA
85% Red X
15% Pils
~1.060
35 IBUs German Magnum @ 60
56 g Mandarina Bavaria 170F hold for 30
56 g Mandarina Bavaria 120 no hold
Wyeast 2352 Munich II at 52F till 50% ADF then 68F

How exciting!

Offline erockrph

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 7824
  • Chepachet, RI
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2015, 10:44:17 pm »
I'm going to give this a try tomorrow after I get my Helles Exportbier in the fermenter. Second brew is going to be my attempt at a beer that Eric sent me for Swaptoberfest.

Märzen meets AAA
85% Red X
15% Pils
~1.060
35 IBUs German Magnum @ 60
56 g Mandarina Bavaria 170F hold for 30
56 g Mandarina Bavaria 120 no hold
Wyeast 2352 Munich II at 52F till 50% ADF then 68F

How exciting!
I'll be interested to hear how this one turns out. If you can pick up an aroma boost using this technique in a malty lager, then that would certainly be a good sign that there's some real benefit to this technique. Subjectively speaking, of course  ;)
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline klickitat jim

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8604
Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2015, 11:21:36 pm »
I'm going to give this a try tomorrow after I get my Helles Exportbier in the fermenter. Second brew is going to be my attempt at a beer that Eric sent me for Swaptoberfest.

Märzen meets AAA
85% Red X
15% Pils
~1.060
35 IBUs German Magnum @ 60
56 g Mandarina Bavaria 170F hold for 30
56 g Mandarina Bavaria 120 no hold
Wyeast 2352 Munich II at 52F till 50% ADF then 68F

How exciting!
I'll be interested to hear how this one turns out. If you can pick up an aroma boost using this technique in a malty lager, then that would certainly be a good sign that there's some real benefit to this technique. Subjectively speaking, of course  ;)
We'll know in about 2 weeks

Offline charles1968

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 536
Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2015, 01:45:16 am »
*Could it be that leaf hops rather than pellet is the key to dry hop clarity?

Could well be, but you get less flavour and a lot more beer lost to absorption if you dry hop with whole hops. I like the idea of dry hopping with Cascade though. I've never succeeded in getting the flavour of Cascade to survive fermentation - it's maddeningly short-lived.

I've spoilt whole batches of beer with infection after dry hopping. I know hops are supposedly antibacterial, but I don't think that applies to the dead slugs/snails I often find in the hop trub after the boil.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 01:47:04 am by charles1968 »

Offline klickitat jim

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8604
Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2015, 08:12:06 am »
Hey, another reason to try the 120 trick! Less snails and slugs!


Offline klickitat jim

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8604
Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2015, 04:44:30 pm »
I used this 120° whirlpool on my hoppy amber lager today. Decided to hold it 15min at 120 because Drew posted a new upcoming experiment that way. I think it's a good idea if for no other reason but to give that new pile of pellets a chance to break up.

Offline erockrph

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 7824
  • Chepachet, RI
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2016, 11:50:15 am »
I just tapped my "Double Whirlpool IPA" last night. It still needs some time to finish carbing up, but the initial sample seems quite promising.

I brewed an IPA using only two hop additions. The initial one was a 60-minute flameout hopstand using Meridian and X-17. The second was after cooling to 120F, with a 60-minute hop stand using Vic Secret and more X-17. Since the three hops have rather distinct flavor and aroma profiles, it's easier to pick out which each addition is contributing to the finished beer. In particular, Vic Secret has a big passionfruit character that neither of the other hops has.

I was very pleased to find that the finished beer has a massive passionfruit aroma. I'd need to do a side-by-side to see how it compares to dry-hopping, but at the rate I'm using (5oz in 3 gallons for the 120F whirlpool, 1 ounce of which was Vic Secret) I'm pretty happy with the amount of aroma I'm picking up. I'm tempted to start whirlpooling at 120F instead of 170F for beers where I don't want IBU's from the late hop additions based on this result.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline HoosierBrew

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 13031
  • Indianapolis,IN
Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2016, 12:04:15 pm »
I just tapped my "Double Whirlpool IPA" last night. It still needs some time to finish carbing up, but the initial sample seems quite promising.

I brewed an IPA using only two hop additions. The initial one was a 60-minute flameout hopstand using Meridian and X-17. The second was after cooling to 120F, with a 60-minute hop stand using Vic Secret and more X-17. Since the three hops have rather distinct flavor and aroma profiles, it's easier to pick out which each addition is contributing to the finished beer. In particular, Vic Secret has a big passionfruit character that neither of the other hops has.

I was very pleased to find that the finished beer has a massive passionfruit aroma. I'd need to do a side-by-side to see how it compares to dry-hopping, but at the rate I'm using (5oz in 3 gallons for the 120F whirlpool, 1 ounce of which was Vic Secret) I'm pretty happy with the amount of aroma I'm picking up. I'm tempted to start whirlpooling at 120F instead of 170F for beers where I don't want IBU's from the late hop additions based on this result.


Good info. I may do some tinkering. I stopped steeping below ~ 160F because it seemed there was a bit of drop off in aroma, at least in my mind. So I arrived at 170-175F as my preference. May need to revisit soon. Thanks.
Jon H.

Offline erockrph

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 7824
  • Chepachet, RI
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2016, 12:08:07 pm »
I just tapped my "Double Whirlpool IPA" last night. It still needs some time to finish carbing up, but the initial sample seems quite promising.

I brewed an IPA using only two hop additions. The initial one was a 60-minute flameout hopstand using Meridian and X-17. The second was after cooling to 120F, with a 60-minute hop stand using Vic Secret and more X-17. Since the three hops have rather distinct flavor and aroma profiles, it's easier to pick out which each addition is contributing to the finished beer. In particular, Vic Secret has a big passionfruit character that neither of the other hops has.

I was very pleased to find that the finished beer has a massive passionfruit aroma. I'd need to do a side-by-side to see how it compares to dry-hopping, but at the rate I'm using (5oz in 3 gallons for the 120F whirlpool, 1 ounce of which was Vic Secret) I'm pretty happy with the amount of aroma I'm picking up. I'm tempted to start whirlpooling at 120F instead of 170F for beers where I don't want IBU's from the late hop additions based on this result.


Good info. I may do some tinkering. I stopped steeping below ~ 160F because it seemed there was a bit of drop off in aroma, at least in my mind. So I arrived at 170-175F as my preference. May need to revisit soon. Thanks.
I wouldn't be surprised that the longer time and larger amounts I used helped make up for any reduced extraction at the lower temps. I'm pretty sure that there are several variables at play here.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline HoosierBrew

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 13031
  • Indianapolis,IN
Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2016, 12:14:48 pm »
I wouldn't be surprised that the longer time and larger amounts I used helped make up for any reduced extraction at the lower temps. I'm pretty sure that there are several variables at play here.

I don't doubt it. There's no single 'magic bullet'.One thing I didn't do at lower temps was extend the time a bit. I stir quite a bit to be sure the pellets are fully dissolved, but maybe a little longer on the steep would get it there.
Jon H.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 27239
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Low temp whirlpool
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2016, 12:25:15 pm »
We've gotten results back from 6 brewers and 62 tasters.  VERY interesting results, too.  We'll present them on the podcast on 2/17.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell