Author Topic: Amylase Question  (Read 983 times)

Offline jeeyeop

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Amylase Question
« on: December 31, 2015, 01:03:46 AM »
So I understand amylase helps break down starches to fermentable sugars in the mash. My question is more out of curiosity rather than any practical use.

So let's say that you create a mash that contains no/low amylase enzymes (rice/unmalted wheat/etc). We would have a very diluted mash of unfermentable sugars. Afterwards let's say you boil this terrible mash. If you were to introduce amylase enzymes to this wort POST boil, would the enzymes be able to convert the unconverted starches to fermentable sugars. Or does it HAVE to be pre-boil when the grains reach their gelatinization temps and no further?

I apologize if my wording is a little off!

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Amylase Question
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2015, 03:33:55 AM »
Starch plus amylase in the 140-160 F temperature range will give you fermentable sugars, regardless of whether it's boiled or not boiled.  For the same reason, you can convert an otherwise poorly fermentable malt extract via a mini-mash with enzymatic base malt.  I've done it.  It works.  If you wanted to run an oddball experiment, you could boil potatoes or rice into a sort of starch soup, then add malt and mash to convert it all to sugars.  Yep, it works.
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Offline narvin

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Re: Amylase Question
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2015, 03:40:00 AM »
Just make sure you use enough liquid, or you're likely to make glue.
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Offline jeeyeop

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Re: Amylase Question
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2015, 03:59:53 AM »
sounds good, thanks for the help!

Offline Philbrew

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Re: Amylase Question
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2015, 05:21:17 PM »
Starch plus amylase in the 140-160 F temperature range will give you fermentable sugars, regardless of whether it's boiled or not boiled.  For the same reason, you can convert an otherwise poorly fermentable malt extract via a mini-mash with enzymatic base malt.  I've done it.  It works.  If you wanted to run an oddball experiment, you could boil potatoes or rice into a sort of starch soup, then add malt and mash to convert it all to sugars.  Yep, it works.
Sorta going off topic.  A buddy wants me to help him make some potato vodka.  What ratio of potatoes to grain (Weyermann pils or GW 2 row) would mash to sugars?
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Offline Whiskers

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Re: Amylase Question
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2015, 08:10:38 PM »
Why would you think it would be a very diluted mash?  That would be up to the ratios you used.  Are you thinking of fermenting on the grain and skipping any sparge/lauter?  Without enzymes, the mash will be very thick and not amenable to rinsing.  Furthermore, you will have a hard time introducing thermal energy without scorching.  Industrially, one would use indirect steam.  Enzymes would be used not only for sugar production, but for viscosity reduction, and generally the two in conjunction. 

Philbrew (potatoes - you don't need any sucrose) - http://www.artisan-distiller.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=5983

Offline denny

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Re: Amylase Question
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2015, 08:14:30 PM »
Starch plus amylase in the 140-160 F temperature range will give you fermentable sugars, regardless of whether it's boiled or not boiled.  For the same reason, you can convert an otherwise poorly fermentable malt extract via a mini-mash with enzymatic base malt.  I've done it.  It works.  If you wanted to run an oddball experiment, you could boil potatoes or rice into a sort of starch soup, then add malt and mash to convert it all to sugars.  Yep, it works.
Sorta going off topic.  A buddy wants me to help him make some potato vodka.  What ratio of potatoes to grain (Weyermann pils or GW 2 row) would mash to sugars?

Sorry, that topic is off limits here.  I realize that you're speaking of theory, but we don't discuss anything related to distilling here.
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Offline Philbrew

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Re: Amylase Question
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2015, 10:41:23 PM »
Starch plus amylase in the 140-160 F temperature range will give you fermentable sugars, regardless of whether it's boiled or not boiled.  For the same reason, you can convert an otherwise poorly fermentable malt extract via a mini-mash with enzymatic base malt.  I've done it.  It works.  If you wanted to run an oddball experiment, you could boil potatoes or rice into a sort of starch soup, then add malt and mash to convert it all to sugars.  Yep, it works.
Sorta going off topic.  A buddy wants me to help him make some potato vodka.  What ratio of potatoes to grain (Weyermann pils or GW 2 row) would mash to sugars?

Sorry, that topic is off limits here.  I realize that you're speaking of theory, but we don't discuss anything related to distilling here.
Oops, sorry. :-[
Many of us would be on a strict liquid diet if it weren't for pretzels.

Offline narvin

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Re: Amylase Question
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2016, 12:28:16 AM »
So, what about a potato beer?   :D

I have boiled potatoes to make potato dextrose agar for plating wild yeast.  It's a much more dilute solution though, and not converted to simple sugars by enzymes.
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Offline Whiskers

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Re: Amylase Question
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2016, 01:03:13 AM »
As per the O.P., you can play around with a boiled cornstarch solution and various enzymes.  The starch will most certainly convert if you use the right enzymes.  A handful of crushed malt will thin it right up too. 

Offline brewsumore

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Re: Amylase Question
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2016, 06:32:23 PM »
I dealt with this and found that amylase in a small amount (1/2 tsp), first dissolved in warm water, added to the 5 gal of viscous fermenting wort is what worked like aces to get the beer to ferment to a very reasonable FG resulting in an excellent gluten free beer.

Adding at the prescribed temps prior to the boil didn't work for me.

Also, using freshly purchased amylase helps a lot methinks.

The full thread is at:  https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=12881.0
« Last Edit: January 03, 2016, 06:35:22 PM by brewsumore »