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Author Topic: astringent off flavor  (Read 4818 times)

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: astringent off flavor
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2016, 10:50:29 am »
I describe astringent as the feeling in your mouth when you chew grape seeds. Another is if you've ever had raw peanuts and tried chewing on all those skins leftover in the bottom of the bag. I get it from walnuts too. Years ago mom had some alum around to dab on canker soars. Thats astringent on steroids. There may be flavors associated with each of these examples. For understanding astringency, ignore the flavors and focus on the feeling. To me it makes your teeth feel like nails on a chock board when you rub them together. Makes the roof of your mouth feel similar to gritty, though minus the actual grit.

BurghBeezer

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Re: astringent off flavor
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2016, 12:59:31 pm »
Unfortunately for the semantic police, the most popular brewing books 'How to Brew' by John Palmer lists astringency in the "Common Off-Flavors" list.  http://howtobrew.com/book/section-4/is-my-beer-ruined/common-off-flavors

Lots of high alcohol beers are described as tasting "boozy," but you aren't tasting the ethanol as much as you are feeling the sensation of alcohol in the mouth/throat.  Many berries taste "tart" but again you are not tasting tart it's a sensation.  Suck a lemon wedge and you are tasting sour citrus, but the physical puckering sensation is just as much a piece of the "flavor" we associate with lemon.

Flavor is a combination of scent, taste and feeling.

Offline denny

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Re: astringent off flavor
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2016, 01:37:07 pm »
Unfortunately for the semantic police, the most popular brewing books 'How to Brew' by John Palmer lists astringency in the "Common Off-Flavors" list.  http://howtobrew.com/book/section-4/is-my-beer-ruined/common-off-flavors

Lots of high alcohol beers are described as tasting "boozy," but you aren't tasting the ethanol as much as you are feeling the sensation of alcohol in the mouth/throat.  Many berries taste "tart" but again you are not tasting tart it's a sensation.  Suck a lemon wedge and you are tasting sour citrus, but the physical puckering sensation is just as much a piece of the "flavor" we associate with lemon.

Flavor is a combination of scent, taste and feeling.

It's not semantics, it's accuracy.  John fell prey to a common mistake.
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BurghBeezer

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Re: astringent off flavor
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2016, 02:39:14 pm »
Unfortunately for the semantic police, the most popular brewing books 'How to Brew' by John Palmer lists astringency in the "Common Off-Flavors" list.  http://howtobrew.com/book/section-4/is-my-beer-ruined/common-off-flavors

Lots of high alcohol beers are described as tasting "boozy," but you aren't tasting the ethanol as much as you are feeling the sensation of alcohol in the mouth/throat.  Many berries taste "tart" but again you are not tasting tart it's a sensation.  Suck a lemon wedge and you are tasting sour citrus, but the physical puckering sensation is just as much a piece of the "flavor" we associate with lemon.

Flavor is a combination of scent, taste and feeling.

It's not semantics, it's accuracy.  John fell prey to a common mistake.

Taste:
n.
1.
a. The sense that distinguishes the sweet, sour, salty, and bitter qualities of dissolved substances in contact with the taste buds on the tongue.
b. This sense in combination with the senses of smell and touch, which together receive a sensation of a substance in the mouth.

2.
a. The sensation of sweet, sour, salty, or bitter qualities produced by a substance placed in the mouth.
b. The unified sensation produced by any of these qualities plus a distinct smell and texture; flavor.
c. A distinctive perception as if by the sense of taste: an experience that left a bad taste in my mouth.

Source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/taste
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/flavor

fla·vor  (flā′vər):
n.
1. Distinctive taste; savor: a flavor of smoke in bacon.
2. A distinctive yet intangible quality felt to be characteristic of a given thing

Offline erockrph

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Re: astringent off flavor
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2016, 02:59:45 pm »
I describe astringent as the feeling in your mouth when you chew grape seeds. Another is if you've ever had raw peanuts and tried chewing on all those skins leftover in the bottom of the bag. I get it from walnuts too. Years ago mom had some alum around to dab on canker soars. Thats astringent on steroids. There may be flavors associated with each of these examples. For understanding astringency, ignore the flavors and focus on the feeling. To me it makes your teeth feel like nails on a chock board when you rub them together. Makes the roof of your mouth feel similar to gritty, though minus the actual grit.
I think of oversteeped tea and oaky red wines, primarily. I get it from some nuts and seeds, too. Whole pomegranate arils are another big one for me.
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Offline Indy574

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Re: astringent off flavor
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2016, 03:20:31 pm »
What salt additions are you making to the RO water? If it varies between batches then it's likely not the milling unless you change mill settings or use different mills for each batch. It's far more likely that you are not adjusting the water properly and getting varied ph between batches.

Typically my brewing salts are Calcium Chloride, Gypsum, Epsom Salt, and Lactic Acid. Never anything else and they vary in amounts per brew. Maybe I miss spoke or didn't describe it correctly but yes it has that puckering feeling.
I went back and tasted some beers and it was very noticeble in the Black IPA, but not in the Stout or IPA I did. I really feel the grain crush is good but my ph must have gone awry.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: astringent off flavor
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2016, 03:25:33 pm »
I think of oversteeped tea and oaky red wines, primarily.


Same here.
Jon H.

Offline Hooper

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Re: astringent off flavor
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2016, 06:08:19 pm »
You might try adjusting all your water to about 5.7 PH prior to mash in and sparge like SN does...and make sure your temp never gets above 168 F.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: astringent off flavor
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2016, 07:43:47 pm »
You might try adjusting all your water to about 5.7 PH prior to mash in and sparge like SN does...and make sure your temp never gets above 168 F.
I thought that was 5.5, using phosphoric acid.
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: astringent off flavor
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2016, 07:47:29 pm »
Since the stout was fine, but the Black IPA was a problem, I would venture to guess that your pH was too low as a combination of adding gypsum to try to make the hops "pop" and starting lower with the pH, generally, between the two beers and possibly too large of a second batch sparge or too hot or a combination of both.  That probably lent the acrid note from the dark malts and the astringency or overall dryness from a hot sparge.  Try the recipe again using all RO water and inputting that 100% dilution ratio into Brunwater to work your additions.

Or I could be way off on the problem....
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Offline ajk

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Re: astringent off flavor
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2016, 04:59:36 am »
Indy574, if you live in central Indiana as your name suggests, try using 70 to 100% filtered tap water for your dark beers, and make up the balance with RO. The alkalinity we get for free in our Indiana water balances the acidity from the dark grains.

Using 100% RO and adding salts to raise the alkalinity is also a valid approach, as is steeping the dark grains after the mash. But I find it easier just to blend in some tap water.

Offline scrap iron

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Re: astringent off flavor
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2016, 09:06:20 am »
Are you adding the Lactic acid to the dark beer mash along with other salts? If so you only need acid for the lightest beers styles. Gypsum,Cal. Chloride and all calcium salts,except cal. carbonate,  help reduce mash ph. Dark grains and crystal malts also reduce mash ph so as some others have said your ph may have been too low. Beers with too low mash ph have a harsh acrid taste when roast grains are used and can have a tart feeling in lighter beers. I would check my ph and adjust accordingly.
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Offline Indy574

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Re: astringent off flavor
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2016, 03:22:16 pm »
Are you adding the Lactic acid to the dark beer mash along with other salts? If so you only need acid for the lightest beers styles. Gypsum,Cal. Chloride and all calcium salts,except cal. carbonate,  help reduce mash ph. Dark grains and crystal malts also reduce mash ph so as some others have said your ph may have been too low. Beers with too low mash ph have a harsh acrid taste when roast grains are used and can have a tart feeling in lighter beers. I would check my ph and adjust accordingly.

Yes, I think that was my problem. I will brew it again sometime and see what happens. I will also use more tap water with it.