Author Topic: Batch Sparge question 1st running amounts and 2nd runnings  (Read 2563 times)

Offline 2brew559

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Batch Sparge question 1st running amounts and 2nd runnings
« on: January 05, 2016, 12:35:05 AM »
Hello eveyone..

Before I type out my question my terminology might be incorrect. so excuse that...

Recipe: 11 lbs of grain @ 1.55qts/ lb
5.5 gallon Target fermenter

Per mash and sparge calculator>>>

Total water needed: 9.42 gallons
Mash Water: 4.26 gallons
Sparge Water: 5.16 gallons
PreBoil Wort produced: 7.52
mash temp: 155F @ 60 mins
mash out: 168F @ 10-15 mins


1st method: batch sparge

Mash In(4.26 gallons): collected only 3 gallons, add to kettle

Mash Out: collect the the difference;  4.52 gallons

Totals: 3 + 4.52 = 7.52  pre-boil kettle volume


2nd Method: batch sparge

Mash In(4.26 gallons):collect 3 gallons BUT rinse grain with a bit more water to collect 4.26 gallons add to kettle

Mash Out: collect only difference; 3.56 gallons of wort

Totals: 4.26 + 3.56 = 7.52  pre-boil kettle volume


Are  both methods correct  since they both amount to same pre boil of 7.52 gallons needed.

« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 01:00:16 AM by 2brew559 »
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Batch Sparge question 1st running amounts and 2nd runnings
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2016, 01:02:07 AM »
I prefer to mash one volume of water, then sparge with the volume needed to hit my preboil quantity. If you're not collecting enough first runnings to hit your target, just mash with enough water (subtracting for grain absorption and dead space in your mash tun) to get a mash runoff that's ideally within a gallon of your sparge runoff. Easy peasy.
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Offline Bob357

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Re: Batch Sparge question 1st running amounts and 2nd runnings
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2016, 01:04:38 AM »
I remember from reading a lot when I started to brew that you want to get 50% of your wort from 1st runnings and 50% from 2nd runnings for optimum efficiency. Keeping that in mind, I keep my mash between 1.25 and 1.5qt./lb. and mash out with the amount of water needed to approximate the 50/50 ratio. My mash efficiency averages 75 to 78%, depending on grain bill and mash temperature. 

In the past I have drained the first runnings and then double sparged with similar results. I conclude that as long as you get at least 50% of your runnings from the sparge and keep a reasonable water to grain ratio in the mash you will be OK.

Why do you get lower efficiency when mashing for a big beer? Because you're getting so much of your wort from 1st runnings.
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Offline tommymorris

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Batch Sparge question 1st running amounts and 2nd runnings
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2016, 01:04:54 AM »
Hello eveyone..

Before I type out my question my terminology might be incorrect. so excuse that...

Recipe: 11 lbs of grain @ 1.55qts/ lb
5.5 gallon Target fermenter

Per mash and sparge calculator>>>

Total water needed: 9.42 gallons
Mash Water: 4.26 gallons
Sparge Water: 5.16 gallons
PreBoil Wort produced: 7.52
mash temp: 155F @ 60 mins
mash out: 168F @ 10-15 mins


1st method: batch sparge

Mash In(4.26 gallons): collected only 3 gallons, add to kettle

Mash Out: collect the the difference only 4.52 gallons

Totals: 3 + 4.52 = 7.52  pre-boil kettle volume


2nd Method: batch sparge

Mash In(4.26 gallons):collect 3 gallons BUT rinse grain with a bit more water to collect 4.26 gallons add to kettle

Mash Out: collect only difference, 3.56 gallons of wort

Totals: 4.26 + 3.56 = 7.52  pre-boil kettle volume


Are  both methods correct  since they both amount to same pre boil of 7.52 gallons needed.
On initial inspection, I think both are wrong.

First, mash in is the act of adding grain to hot water and stirring to initiate the mash. Mash out is the act of raising the mash temp to denature the enzymes in the mash and stop conversion.

The 2 steps you are interested in are draining the tun and sparging.

Before draining you may add extra hot water to cause the mash out process. This may be part of your confusion.

Regarding your math; the first time you drain your tun you will not get back all the water you added. The grain absorbs water and this absorbed water will never come out. Grain absorption is usually about 0.96 fl. oz./oz. (fluid ounce absorbed per ounce of grain).

When sparging, the grain is saturated and cannot absorb more water. So, you get out the amount of sparge water you add.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 01:17:26 AM by alestateyall »

Offline tommymorris

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Batch Sparge question 1st running amounts and 2nd runnings
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2016, 01:11:50 AM »
For your specs.

Your mash will absorb 11*16*0.96/128=1.32G (11 pounds grain * 16 oz per pound * 0.96 fl. oz. per oz. / 128 oz. per gallon).

So if you mash with 4.26G you will drain 2.94G.

For the sparge you need 7.52-2.94= 4.58G. Sparge with 4.58G to get 4.58G.

2.94+4.58=7.52G preboil.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 01:16:23 AM by alestateyall »

Offline tommymorris

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Batch Sparge question 1st running amounts and 2nd runnings
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2016, 01:28:40 AM »
One last thing. If you increase your initial strike water ratio to 1.8qts per pound you will get a more even 1st and second runnings ratio.

1.8*11/4= 4.95G strike water.

Same amount of grain means same absorption. So if you mash with 4.95G you will drain 3.63G.

Then you will need 7.52-3.63 = 3.89 from sparge. So, sparge with 3.89G.

Equal run off amounts is supposed to lead to better efficiency.

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Re: Batch Sparge question 1st running amounts and 2nd runnings
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2016, 02:13:16 AM »
Denny, where are you?


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Offline 2brew559

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Re: Batch Sparge question 1st running amounts and 2nd runnings
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2016, 02:48:28 AM »
Ok so method 1 is the one I usually use
Which is pretty much the foumulas and methods you guys are describing


But this weekend I breweed 2 beers using  method 2.  I switched it up...no ryme or reason just figured why use so much more water for second mash out..??

 all readings taken with a hydrometer and temp corrected....

Milk Stout - 1.058:  11 lbs grain @1.55 qts
Preboil**
Software:  1.042
Actual: 1.041

Post boil**
Software: 1.058
Actual: 1.061


Porter - 1.056: 10.75lbs @1.55qts
Preboil **
Software: 1.041
Actual: 1.044

Post boil**
Software: 1.056
Actual: 1.060

But I think I will use the 1st method which is what everyone uses...and is per the  software

Guess was wondering if it hurts the beer...such as too thin..etc...
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Batch Sparge question 1st running amounts and 2nd runnings
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2016, 02:57:05 AM »
Were you attempting to mash out and stop enzymatic action or to achieve a specific mouthfeel or head retention through stepping temperatures?  If not, then I don't think either way will dramatically affect your beer as compared to the other.  I occasionally use the late addition of water at 180F or higher added to the initial mash to raise the temperature into the high 150's or even 160's to get a little better head retention and body in the beer.

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Offline 2brew559

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Re: Batch Sparge question 1st running amounts and 2nd runnings
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2016, 03:12:37 AM »
Here's a pic of the calculator estimates




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« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 03:22:34 AM by 2brew559 »
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Offline 2brew559

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Re: Batch Sparge question 1st running amounts and 2nd runnings
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2016, 03:15:41 AM »
Were you attempting to mash out and stop enzymatic action or to achieve a specific mouthfeel or head retention through stepping temperatures?  If not, then I don't think either way will dramatically affect your beer as compared to the other.  I occasionally use the late addition of water at 180F or higher added to the initial mash to raise the temperature into the high 150's or even 160's to get a little better head retention and body in the beer.
Ynotbrusum,

I was mashing out to stop the reactions, enzymes...

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Re: Batch Sparge question 1st running amounts and 2nd runnings
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2016, 04:49:13 AM »
Think backwards on it, i.e. think about the water to grist ratio first.  Among other things, there's a ton good info out there to help you make great beer.  John Palmer summarizes as so:

A compromise of all factors yields the standard mash conditions for most homebrewers: a mash ratio of about 1.5 quarts of water per pound grain, pH of 5.3, temperature of 150-155°F and a time of about one hour. These conditions yield a wort with a nice maltiness and good fermentability.

It's a concise read:  http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/how-the-mash-works/manipulating-the-starch-conversion-rest

In starting out with 1.55qts/lb, the argument is for you to use less mash water, and then get up-to-speed on water chemistry to get the pH you need.  Martin Brungard's "Bru'n Water" is a fantastic reference.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 04:51:01 AM by surfin.mikeg »

Offline Pricelessbrewing

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Re: Batch Sparge question 1st running amounts and 2nd runnings
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2016, 05:12:16 AM »
Shameless plug my mash/volumes/temps/efficiencies/gravities,etcetc calculator. It just wont stop growing! http://pricelessbrewing.github.io/BiabCalc/

If you're batch* sparging (which you should be doing) and not fly sparging,(which is more effective ideally but much harder to get correct due to needed specific setup for drainage/mashtun geometery/lots of time etc), then don't worry too much about your run off ratio. Yes, a 1:1 ratio is best but the difference between a 4:1 ratio and a 1:1 ratio is small. My standard simulation gives 84.6% mash efficiency with a 1:1 and a 83.2% with a 4:1 ratio. Don't worry about it...

Pick your mash thickness first, I like 1.75 as it generally gives me a good conversion efficiency while leaving some water left over to do a good sparge.

If you're not fly sparging, don't bother with a mashout, it's unnecessary. Keep your "mashout" temp below 171 regardless. In my mind, it's not worth the extra effort and risk of tannin extraction.

*A well done batch sparge is quick, and very effective. Drain mash tun, add water, stir the crap out of it.

Offline 2brew559

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Re: Batch Sparge question 1st running amounts and 2nd runnings
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2016, 05:37:29 AM »
Shameless plug my mash/volumes/temps/efficiencies/gravities,etcetc calculator. It just wont stop growing! http://pricelessbrewing.github.io/BiabCalc/

If you're batch* sparging (which you should be doing) and not fly sparging,(which is more effective ideally but much harder to get correct due to needed specific setup for drainage/mashtun geometery/lots of time etc), then don't worry too much about your run off ratio. Yes, a 1:1 ratio is best but the difference between a 4:1 ratio and a 1:1 ratio is small. My standard simulation gives 84.6% mash efficiency with a 1:1 and a 83.2% with a 4:1 ratio. Don't worry about it...

Pick your mash thickness first, I like 1.75 as it generally gives me a good conversion efficiency while leaving some water left over to do a good sparge.

If you're not fly sparging, don't bother with a mashout, it's unnecessary. Keep your "mashout" temp below 171 regardless. In my mind, it's not worth the extra effort and risk of tannin extraction.

*A well done batch sparge is quick, and very effective. Drain mash tun, add water, stir the crap out of it.

Thanks.. I guess I'm a batch sparger..
Step 1: Mash in water to a temp for the beer style
 add the 1st strike water at the ratio the calc gives me
Drain after 60 mins. I get less than what I put in..due to grain absrobtion etc..

2nd step: mash out 168F enzyme activity denaturing etc...
Heat required amount of water that I need  and add to mashtun for 10 mins...
Drain and add this to my 1st mash running to equal my preboil. 

Total: step 1 + Step 2 = preboil amount

I think if I'm understanding you I'm a batch sparger?    I've never fly sparged and don't plan too because of what I've read and the length of time.....life too short to fly sparged..lol
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 05:53:02 AM by 2brew559 »
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Offline Pricelessbrewing

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Re: Batch Sparge question 1st running amounts and 2nd runnings
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2016, 05:55:06 AM »

Thanks.. I guess I'm a batch sparger..
Step 1: Mash in water to a temp for the beer style
 add the 1st strike water at the ratio the calc gives me
Drain after 60 mins. I get less than what I put in..due to grain absrobtion etc..

2nd step: mash out 168F enzyme activity denaturing etc...
Heat required amount of water that I need to add to my 1st mash running to equal my preboil.  Add that to the mash tun and then drain after 10/mins

Total: step 1 + Step 2 = preboil

Then I boil for 60 mins chill and dump to fementers :)

I think if I'm understanding you I'm a batch sparger?    I've neber fly sparged and don't plan too because of what I've read and the length of time.....
Step 1 clarification, the mash temp isn't specific to the beer style but rather to that specific recipe. You can take 6 different recipes for a belgian saison or american stout and while a couple might have the same, there's probably a 3-4 degree range where they're going to lie.

step 2, sounds good if that's what you want to do.

Personal opinion on mash outs, again if you're not fly sparging then a mashout isn't going to really do anything for you. The purpose is to denature the mash enzymes in order to lock in the fermentability of the wort during a prolonged fly sparge. If you're batch sparging then there's not enough relevant time for the fermentability o change at all. Also if you're mashing long enough, then there should be very little conversion, if any at all, to occur during the sparge. Sparge at whatever temp you want.

Correct.