Author Topic: Thin and bland - culprits?  (Read 3206 times)

Offline beersk

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Thin and bland - culprits?
« on: January 06, 2016, 04:11:02 PM »
Howdy y'all. I don't post many topics, but lately I'm having an issue that's bugging me. I posted this in the yeast section because I feel it may be a yeast issue. But it could be something else...

Several of my last beers have come out thin and bland. I'm using RO water build up with Bru'n water and targeting mash pH of 5.4. Most beers are lagers with Best Malz. I typically mash around 150F for 75 minutes, but have done some Hochkurz step infusion mashes as well with the same results.

Typically I pitch a pretty huge amount of harvested slurry that is usually 1-2 weeks old, sometimes fresher. I'm wondering if I'm over pitching.

What are some likely culprits to my issue here? The beers are usually finishing around 1.010-1.012, plus or minus 1 or 2 points, which is good, I think.

Another thought is I wonder if over pitching batch after batch for several generations would lead to this issue.

Thanks!
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2016, 05:35:50 PM »
I typically mash around 150F for 75 minutes, but have done some Hochkurz step infusion mashes as well with the same results.

Do you incorporate a protein rest?  A protein rest is certain to kill body.  Don't ever do a protein rest.

The length of mash time is also too much.  Try just 40 minutes as I do -- works great.

You say you think this might be a yeast issue, but you didn't tell us what yeast you use.  In any case, I seriously seriously doubt the problem is related to yeast.  It's a mash issue.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 05:37:36 PM by dmtaylor »
Dave

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Offline beersk

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2016, 06:20:51 PM »
Thanks, Dave. I wondered. I didn't think a 75 minute mash would be too much, especially for 150F. But it's likely converting further during runoff and sparge. This round of yeast was with WLP838.
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Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2016, 06:24:46 PM »
Thanks, Dave. I wondered. I didn't think a 75 minute mash would be too much, especially for 150F. But it's likely converting further during runoff and sparge. This round of yeast was with WLP838.

your mash time IMO isnt the issue....could be other things but IME the time isnt it. temp accurate? PH? qt/lb?  just thoughts
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Offline Pricelessbrewing

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2016, 06:36:30 PM »
I'm with Dave.

Grain bill? Yeast used? What thermometer are you using, have you checked calibration at boil and in an ice bath? A single infusion @ 150 is doing to be thin due to high fermentability.

Offline beersk

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2016, 06:41:28 PM »
I use a Thermopen. But I've also had this issue with some Hochkurz step mashes, which led me to think I was over pitching.

The recent post from Jeff about Best Malz coming in .2-.3 low on pH is something else to consider. Perhaps this is a culprit since the beers I've noticed are thin have been mainly Best Malz Pils/Vienna/Munich malt based. I usually aim for pH 5.4 per Bru'n water, typically go middle of the road for a balanced profile, for my dortmunder and helles it was the yellow balanced profile.
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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2016, 06:46:42 PM »

I use a Thermopen. But I've also had this issue with some Hochkurz step mashes, which led me to think I was over pitching.

The recent post from Jeff about Best Malz coming in .2-.3 low on pH is something else to consider. Perhaps this is a culprit since the beers I've noticed are thin have been mainly Best Malz Pils/Vienna/Munich malt based. I usually aim for pH 5.4 per Bru'n water, typically go middle of the road for a balanced profile, for my dortmunder and helles it was the yellow balanced profile.

What's your conversion efficiency  % been like? Been hitting your target pre boil gravity?


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Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline beersk

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2016, 06:50:03 PM »

I use a Thermopen. But I've also had this issue with some Hochkurz step mashes, which led me to think I was over pitching.

The recent post from Jeff about Best Malz coming in .2-.3 low on pH is something else to consider. Perhaps this is a culprit since the beers I've noticed are thin have been mainly Best Malz Pils/Vienna/Munich malt based. I usually aim for pH 5.4 per Bru'n water, typically go middle of the road for a balanced profile, for my dortmunder and helles it was the yellow balanced profile.

What's your conversion efficiency  % been like? Been hitting your target pre boil gravity?


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Been coming up a little short on preboil gravity, I think, but I usually overshoot my preboil volume too. I can't always trust was Beersmith tells me for that stuff. Brewhouse efficiency is usually between 75-80%.
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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2016, 06:52:59 PM »


I use a Thermopen. But I've also had this issue with some Hochkurz step mashes, which led me to think I was over pitching.

The recent post from Jeff about Best Malz coming in .2-.3 low on pH is something else to consider. Perhaps this is a culprit since the beers I've noticed are thin have been mainly Best Malz Pils/Vienna/Munich malt based. I usually aim for pH 5.4 per Bru'n water, typically go middle of the road for a balanced profile, for my dortmunder and helles it was the yellow balanced profile.

What's your conversion efficiency  % been like? Been hitting your target pre boil gravity?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Been coming up a little short on preboil gravity, I think, but I usually overshoot my preboil volume too. I can't always trust was Beersmith tells me for that stuff. Brewhouse efficiency is usually between 75-80%.

That seems more what I would expect .    Lower than 5.2 ph can impact conversion. You coming up short on target gravity and coupled with overshooting volume = diluted wort.


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Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline beersk

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2016, 06:53:44 PM »
I will definitely be looking into that, for sure. So, I guess full disclosure - what I've noticed happening is building recipes for 5.25 gallons and ending up with 5.5 gallons in the fermenter. Sound like a probable cause coupled with maybe mashing too low and too long?
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Jesse

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2016, 07:06:21 PM »
If you don't have a pH meter or a DO meter its a guess at best.
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Offline beersk

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2016, 07:08:25 PM »
If you don't have a pH meter or a DO meter its a guess at best.
Very true... Like I've stated before, I'm not super interested in getting too deep into the science-y part of brewing. Just enough to get me there will do. Not sure I'm ready for a pH meter. Dissolved o2 meter, however, I don't feel is necessary. A pH meter is definitely more valuable than a DO meter.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2016, 07:10:04 PM »
I'm still most concerned about whether you're doing a protein rest -- that's numero uno.  Yet no one is talking about it.

I don't think pH is the issue.  Also don't think mash time, not really... a low & slow mash will increase attenuation by a couple points, but won't hurt body like a protein rest will.
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Offline beersk

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2016, 07:12:25 PM »
I have not been doing a protein rest, Dave. Sorry I missed that.
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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2016, 07:14:37 PM »
If you don't have a pH meter or a DO meter its a guess at best.
Very true... Like I've stated before, I'm not super interested in getting too deep into the science-y part of brewing. Just enough to get me there will do. Not sure I'm ready for a pH meter. Dissolved o2 meter, however, I don't feel is necessary. A pH meter is definitely more valuable than a DO meter.

Ehh, I will respectfully disagree, but that may be a topic for another day.

But thats just it, what you are doing for you is not working hence the post  8) If one had some instruments, you can rule out variables pretty much immediately.
Herr, wirf Hirn vom Himmel!
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Check us out at www.lowoxygenbrewing.com (Now with forums)
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