[The Beerery]

I'm still most concerned about whether you're doing a protein rest -- that's numero uno.  Yet no one is talking about it.

I don't think pH is the issue.  Also don't think mash time, not really... a low & slow mash will increase attenuation by a couple points, but won't hurt body like a protein rest will.

At what temp do you consider it a "protein rest"?

[beersk]

If you don't have a pH meter or a DO meter its a guess at best.

Very true... Like I've stated before, I'm not super interested in getting too deep into the science-y part of brewing. Just enough to get me there will do. Not sure I'm ready for a pH meter. Dissolved o2 meter, however, I don't feel is necessary. A pH meter is definitely more valuable than a DO meter.

Ehh, I will respectfully disagree, but that may be a topic for another day.

But thats just it, what you are doing for you is not working hence the post  If one had some instruments, you can rule out variables pretty much immediately.

I know... this is why I feel I'll probably end up getting a pH meter, even though it was something I never really wanted to have to buy and maintain (the real reason I don't want one).

[beersk]

It is a bit difficult to say whether it's dilute wort though. My OG's have been pretty much what Beersmith predicts, within a point or so either way. I just want this to be an over pitching issue and be done with it. But I doubt it's that simple.

So we have mashing too low/too long?
Over pitching (or would over pitching for many generations cause something like this?)
too low pH
dilute wort (although, seems doubtful)

Anything else this could be?

[dmtaylor]

I have not been doing a protein rest, Dave. Sorry I missed that.

Well that answers that one!  Okay.

Thermometer calibration might be off.  Maybe you're actually mashing at like 146 F or who knows what?  That could affect body maybe.

Trying to help.

[dmtaylor]

At what temp do you consider it a "protein rest"?

The worst impact occurs at 122 F, and that's where I get my experience from.  I've heard some folks now use 131 F and don't have the same problems.  Personally, I see no need to perform a protein rest at either temperature -- it just is not worth any risk of the likely impacts: no body, no head, watery.

[The Beerery]

At what temp do you consider it a "protein rest"?

The worst impact occurs at 122 F, and that's where I get my experience from.  I've heard some folks now use 131 F and don't have the same problems.  Personally, I see no need to perform a protein rest at either temperature -- it just is not worth any risk of the likely impacts: no body, no head, watery.

Roger that, 131 and above is not a protein rest anymore. Its all malt dependent, not beer style.

[beersk]

I have not been doing a protein rest, Dave. Sorry I missed that.

Well that answers that one!  Okay.

Thermometer calibration might be off.  Maybe you're actually mashing at like 146 F or who knows what?  That could affect body maybe.

Trying to help.

Well, it's possible. I'd hate to believe my Thermopen isn't giving me anything but the most accurate results!

[The Beerery]

I have not been doing a protein rest, Dave. Sorry I missed that.

Well that answers that one!  Okay.

Thermometer calibration might be off.  Maybe you're actually mashing at like 146 F or who knows what?  That could affect body maybe.

Trying to help.

Well, it's possible. I'd hate to believe my Thermopen isn't giving me anything but the most accurate results!

I'll back you up and say no way your thermopen is off.

[dmtaylor]

I'll back you up and say no way your thermopen is off.

Somebody here (link below) said their Thermapen was off by about 5 degrees.  Anything's possible.

https://forums.egullet.org/topic/150159-calibrating-a-thermapen-in-boiling-water/

[beersk]

I'll back you up and say no way your thermopen is off.

Somebody here (link below) said their Thermapen was off by about 5 degrees.  Anything's possible.

https://forums.egullet.org/topic/150159-calibrating-a-thermapen-in-boiling-water/

Well, it's usually been spot on for telling me when I'm coming up to a boil and whatnot... It does seem like a less likely culprit here.

How about grain bed temperature differences? What if it's 150F in one spot and 147F at the other end of the cooler? I've seemed to notice something like this in my cooler. I try to stir for several minutes after mashing in. Spit balling here; doubt that's the case.

In the mean time, I'm brewing some smaller batches till I can get this sh*t figured out. Hated having 5 gallons of bland watery helles I didn't want to drink. I fear I have the same situation with a Vienna lager now as well. And that one was step mashed - 145F for 30 minutes, infused up to 159F for 40 minutes. 1.053 down to 1.013. That mah fakkah should not be thin and watery.

[dmtaylor]

How about grain bed temperature differences? What if it's 150F in one spot and 147F at the other end of the cooler? I've seemed to notice something like this in my cooler. I try to stir for several minutes after mashing in. Spit balling here; doubt that's the case.

This happens for certain in any/every mash tun.  The only way to characterize the "real" average mash temperature is to measure in at least 3 or 4 different places and take the average.  You can't know for certain what your average mash temperature is if you only check in one spot.  It also changes with time.  I find my mash temperature jumping all over the place for the first 5-10 minutes after initial strike water addition.  After that it settles in to a nice even temperature for the most part... plus or minus 2-3 degrees in different spots.

[Pricelessbrewing]

Do an ice bath and a boil test. If your ice bath is accurate, it's probably fine. Boil test should read ~211, despite what people say, I've NEVER seen water boil at 212 except in my chemistry and physics labs where we were using distilled water.

Been coming up a little short on preboil gravity, I think, but I usually overshoot my preboil volume too. I can't always trust was Beersmith tells me for that stuff. Brewhouse efficiency is usually between 75-80%.

As a shameless plug for myself: If you don't trust BS2, check out my mash calculator at http://pricelessbrewing.github.io/BiabCalc it uses a small modification of braukaisers formulas to estimate, and then measure your conversion, mash, and lauter efficiencies. Estimated gravities are based on a 36 ppg grain weighted average, once I add recipe formulation it will pull from an accurate grain database.

In the mean time, I'm brewing some smaller batches till I can get this sh*t figured out.

I've been brewing small batches for the last 4 months. Big fan. Lots of diversity in my pipeline. So many beers to choose from

[dmtaylor]

Do an ice bath and a boil test. If your ice bath is accurate, it's probably fine. Boil test should read ~211, despite what people say, I've NEVER seen water boil at 212 except in my chemistry and physics labs where we were using distilled water.

It depends on elevation and water quality.  Best is distilled at sea elevation.  Assuming you're not at sea elevation, the interwebs will provide the elevation and temperature adjustment for your particular city.  And you're right, it's usually a reasonable amount less than 212 F actually.

In the mean time, I'm brewing some smaller batches till I can get this sh*t figured out.

I've been brewing small batches for the last 4 months. Big fan. Lots of diversity in my pipeline. So many beers to choose from

Certainly nothing wrong with that!  For the vast majority of brews these days, I'm brewing 1.7-2 gallons.  Nothing but advantages from my perspective.

[beersk]

Do an ice bath and a boil test. If your ice bath is accurate, it's probably fine. Boil test should read ~211, despite what people say, I've NEVER seen water boil at 212 except in my chemistry and physics labs where we were using distilled water.

Been coming up a little short on preboil gravity, I think, but I usually overshoot my preboil volume too. I can't always trust was Beersmith tells me for that stuff. Brewhouse efficiency is usually between 75-80%.

As a shameless plug for myself: If you don't trust BS2, check out my mash calculator at http://pricelessbrewing.github.io/BiabCalc it uses a small modification of braukaisers formulas to estimate, and then measure your conversion, mash, and lauter efficiencies. Estimated gravities are based on a 36 ppg grain weighted average, once I add recipe formulation it will pull from an accurate grain database.

In the mean time, I'm brewing some smaller batches till I can get this sh*t figured out.

I've been brewing small batches for the last 4 months. Big fan. Lots of diversity in my pipeline. So many beers to choose from

I am confident my Thermapen is accurate.

Yes, I picked up some 2.5 gallon kegs and am doing 3 gallon batches (2.5 final volume). Shouldn't be too difficult to get rid of 2.5 gallons if it doesn't turn out as I hope. So I plan to do lots of brewing to get this figured out! I'm single with no kids - I got all the f*cking time in the world.

[Wort-H.O.G.]

I'll back you up and say no way your thermopen is off.

Somebody here (link below) said their Thermapen was off by about 5 degrees.  Anything's possible.

https://forums.egullet.org/topic/150159-calibrating-a-thermapen-in-boiling-water/

Well, it's usually been spot on for telling me when I'm coming up to a boil and whatnot... It does seem like a less likely culprit here.

How about grain bed temperature differences? What if it's 150F in one spot and 147F at the other end of the cooler? I've seemed to notice something like this in my cooler. I try to stir for several minutes after mashing in. Spit balling here; doubt that's the case.

In the mean time, I'm brewing some smaller batches till I can get this sh*t figured out. Hated having 5 gallons of bland watery helles I didn't want to drink. I fear I have the same situation with a Vienna lager now as well. And that one was step mashed - 145F for 30 minutes, infused up to 159F for 40 minutes. 1.053 down to 1.013. That mah fakkah should not be thin and watery.

agreed-should not be thin and watery just because of temp. i make really nice APA, IPA, pils at 148-149F...plenty of body, flavor, mouth feel. grist does play some role in final product, but 148F mashed pils does not equal thin watery lifeless beer IMO and IME.