Author Topic: Thin and bland - culprits?  (Read 6342 times)

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2016, 04:53:14 pm »
but 148F mashed pils does not equal thin watery lifeless beer IMO and IME.


+1.  I mash German pils @ 148-149F/90 mins and don't get thin, watery beer.
Jon H.

Offline JT

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2016, 05:28:59 pm »
I'm betting it is a yeast issue.  Just maybe not with the yeast you are wanting to use.  Do you have any set aside at room temp you could sample after time to see if anything else develops (in terms of flavor)?  Or is it all kegged? 

The Beerery

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2016, 06:17:37 am »
but 148F mashed pils does not equal thin watery lifeless beer IMO and IME.


+1.  I mash German pils @ 148-149F/90 mins and don't get thin, watery beer.

Hrmmmm, can you explain that? Because with no alpha, or limit dextrins.. thats near impossible. Unless augmenting with a lot of dextrin producing malt, of course.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 06:22:07 am by The Beerery »

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2016, 06:33:10 am »

but 148F mashed pils does not equal thin watery lifeless beer IMO and IME.


+1.  I mash German pils @ 148-149F/90 mins and don't get thin, watery beer.

Hrmmmm, can you explain that? Because with no alpha, or limit dextrins.. thats near impossible. Unless augmenting with a lot of dextrin producing malt, of course.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2016, 06:33:47 am »
but 148F mashed pils does not equal thin watery lifeless beer IMO and IME.


+1.  I mash German pils @ 148-149F/90 mins and don't get thin, watery beer.

Hrmmmm, can you explain that? Because with no alpha, or limit dextrins.. thats near impossible. Unless augmenting with a lot of dextrin producing malt, of course.


I sometimes (but not always) use a small amount of dextrin malt (like 4%ish) for a slight boost in body.  The beer has a light/light-medium body, not a watery, thin one.
Jon H.

Offline beersk

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2016, 06:51:14 am »
I'm betting it is a yeast issue.  Just maybe not with the yeast you are wanting to use.  Do you have any set aside at room temp you could sample after time to see if anything else develops (in terms of flavor)?  Or is it all kegged? 
It's all kegged. Suppose I could bottle one off the keg and see. The recent particular beer is a Vienna lager with 70% Best Vienna, 23% Best Munich I, 6% Caramunich III, and a percent or so of debittered black malt. Mash was 145F for 30 minutes, 159F for 40 minutes. Boiled for 60 minutes, aerated with pure o2 for 90-120 seconds, pitched quite large slurry of 838 that was harvested less than a week before pitching.

I still feel it could be an over pitching issue but I just don't know. It just doesn't make sense to me. It certainly doesn't strike me as any sort of contamination as the beer doesn't have any strange flavors.
It doesn't seem likely to be water issue if I'm targeting amber balanced in Bru'n water with gypsum, epsom, calcium chloride, and 85% phosphoric.

I'm perplexed. Any other variables I'm missing?

One thing I've decided is I think I'm not going to push my yeast so far, only use it for a few generations then switch to a new yeast. That's more for variety than anything, but perhaps pushing a yeast too far, especially with over pitching from generation to generation is causing the yeast to perform poorly? It still attenuates well, but other than that...maybe it's compromising the beer otherwise.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 06:53:04 am by beersk »
Jesse

The Beerery

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2016, 07:04:57 am »


I'm perplexed. Any other variables I'm missing?


Yes, and its dead simple. But I can assure you no one here will know, as we were "pre-programmed" to not even think about it.
I strongly suggest you check out some specific brewing literature, and this one is in English.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 07:07:09 am by The Beerery »

Offline beersk

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2016, 07:12:52 am »


I'm perplexed. Any other variables I'm missing?


Yes, and its dead simple. But I can assure you no one here will know, as we were "pre-programmed" to not even think about it.
I strongly suggest you check out some specific brewing literature, and this one is in English.  ;)
Man, you sound just like my former Kung Fu sifu. Always answering questions with cryptic answers, it drove me crazy! I'd ask a question about something and sometimes he'd just smile. Argh! Help a brother out, holmes!
Jesse

The Beerery

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2016, 07:20:08 am »


I'm perplexed. Any other variables I'm missing?


Yes, and its dead simple. But I can assure you no one here will know, as we were "pre-programmed" to not even think about it.
I strongly suggest you check out some specific brewing literature, and this one is in English.  ;)
Man, you sound just like my former Kung Fu sifu. Always answering questions with cryptic answers, it drove me crazy! I'd ask a question about something and sometimes he'd just smile. Argh! Help a brother out, holmes!

The answer to "it" has always been in plain sight, but not until ones mind is in the right state does the answer become obvious, my son. *head bow* *sly smile*

 ;D

Online dmtaylor

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2016, 07:24:15 am »
Ugh.... change the name, but don't change the man....
Dave

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Offline beersk

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2016, 07:31:32 am »
Oh Bryan, you are an interesting character.

Alright, let's get back on track here.

We got mash profile...seems unlikely if I did a step mash for the Vienna. What else? I mean, this beer was 1.053 down to 1.013.
There's water, which was built from RO to amber balanced in Bru'n water.
Ingredients? Is there a reason the malt I'm using would create this beer? This beer was all Best Malz.
Yeast. Stressed yeast that has been pushed to its limits from chronic over pitching?
Contamination? Is there some form of contamination that thins a beer out without any flavor contributions? None that I've heard of...just curious.

Now is when I wish I had a pH meter. May be investing in one soon. I guess it seems this maybe just needs some more experimentation with smaller batches to figure this out. I was just hoping for a little guidance from more expert brewers.
Jesse

The Beerery

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2016, 07:42:50 am »
Oh Bryan, you are an interesting character.

Alright, let's get back on track here.

We got mash profile...seems unlikely if I did a step mash for the Vienna. What else? I mean, this beer was 1.053 down to 1.013.
There's water, which was built from RO to amber balanced in Bru'n water.
Ingredients? Is there a reason the malt I'm using would create this beer? This beer was all Best Malz.
Yeast. Stressed yeast that has been pushed to its limits from chronic over pitching?
Contamination? Is there some form of contamination that thins a beer out without any flavor contributions? None that I've heard of...just curious.

Now is when I wish I had a pH meter. May be investing in one soon. I guess it seems this maybe just needs some more experimentation with smaller batches to figure this out. I was just hoping for a little guidance from more expert brewers.

I was on track, but you want advice so here it is...

Short of not knowing what your pH value actually is (which has some potential merit to the problem, but won't necessarily get you where you are going), nothing you are doing is wrong or needs to be changed.

Offline beersk

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2016, 07:45:26 am »
Oh Bryan, you are an interesting character.

Alright, let's get back on track here.

We got mash profile...seems unlikely if I did a step mash for the Vienna. What else? I mean, this beer was 1.053 down to 1.013.
There's water, which was built from RO to amber balanced in Bru'n water.
Ingredients? Is there a reason the malt I'm using would create this beer? This beer was all Best Malz.
Yeast. Stressed yeast that has been pushed to its limits from chronic over pitching?
Contamination? Is there some form of contamination that thins a beer out without any flavor contributions? None that I've heard of...just curious.

Now is when I wish I had a pH meter. May be investing in one soon. I guess it seems this maybe just needs some more experimentation with smaller batches to figure this out. I was just hoping for a little guidance from more expert brewers.

I was on track, but you want advice so here it is...

Short of not knowing what your pH value actually is (which has some potential merit to the problem, but won't necessarily get you where you are going), nothing you are doing is wrong or needs to be changed.
Oh I'm sure there's something, but it sounds like pH measurement is the next step that I was hoping to avoid. Oh well, so it goes.

Thanks for all the help, dudes. Just another step towards better beer.
Jesse

The Beerery

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2016, 07:48:44 am »
Oh Bryan, you are an interesting character.

Alright, let's get back on track here.

We got mash profile...seems unlikely if I did a step mash for the Vienna. What else? I mean, this beer was 1.053 down to 1.013.
There's water, which was built from RO to amber balanced in Bru'n water.
Ingredients? Is there a reason the malt I'm using would create this beer? This beer was all Best Malz.
Yeast. Stressed yeast that has been pushed to its limits from chronic over pitching?
Contamination? Is there some form of contamination that thins a beer out without any flavor contributions? None that I've heard of...just curious.

Now is when I wish I had a pH meter. May be investing in one soon. I guess it seems this maybe just needs some more experimentation with smaller batches to figure this out. I was just hoping for a little guidance from more expert brewers.

I was on track, but you want advice so here it is...

Short of not knowing what your pH value actually is (which has some potential merit to the problem, but won't necessarily get you where you are going), nothing you are doing is wrong or needs to be changed.
Oh I'm sure there's something, but it sounds like pH measurement is the next step that I was hoping to avoid. Oh well, so it goes.

Thanks for all the help, dudes. Just another step towards better beer.

80/20 rule man. Some people hit that limit, some never do.

Offline toby

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Re: Thin and bland - culprits?
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2016, 10:41:57 am »
I'm perplexed. Any other variables I'm missing?

Since you've stated that you didn't test pH, you could always try adjusting it in the glass.  Pour 3 or 4 small samples (4 oz would be adequate), and then add differing drops of phosphoric or lactic acid (say 1, 2, 3, 4) in each one.  If it starts to pop flavor-wise, you know your pH wasn't optimized.  Body is obviously a separate issue.