[Kit B]

Oh I'm sure there's something, but it sounds like pH measurement is the next step that I was hoping to avoid. Oh well, so it goes.

Thanks for all the help, dudes. Just another step towards better beer.

I often suffer from the exact problem you have described.
Thin, weak, lifeless lager.
Don't get me wrong...It's GREAT beer that friends & family rave about.
But, I don't believe it's "good enough", in my own opinion.
So...I set out to make it better & learn what I can change.
The only ways I've found are to read classic textbooks/papers/studies on brewing/malting & join up with like-minded folks, to discuss what we see in these texts that might lead down a new rabbit hole.
From there, we can establish different practices & recipes.

If you are able to notice that your beer isn't as good as you want it to be & you know exactly what the characteristic is that makes you feel that way, you're already FAR ahead of the pack, Beersk.
...Even if you don't know what's making it that way.

Measuring pH will give you an eye-opening glimpse into the science.
It probably won't get you 100% where you are going, but it would be a big step in the right direction.

My advice to you, on pH meters is:
Buy something that measures to 2 or more decimal places.
Mine only goes to a single decimal & it bugs me enough that I want a new one.

The biggest & best thing I can tell you is this:
DO NOT blindly follow anyone that tells you "We don't need to follow that, because we are homebrewers".
This is a very serious mistake.
There's always a reason that a practice was adopted.
Rarely, is that reason related to scale.

My beers have not yet even hit the 90% mark, where I'm consistently happy with the body, flavor & texture, but I think 2 good starting points for you will be pH & mash temperatures.

I personally feel that the 150*F mash was part of my problem & I'm currently working on fixing that.

[beersk]

Toby, that's not a bad idea. Thanks for the idea.

Kit B, I can relate. It's not always an issue, but it is enough of an issue that it bugs me. And maybe you're right about the mash temp. I feel only slightly embarrassed - I tried another sample of my Vienna lager and as it's carbing up, it seems to be getting better and better. So that's a good sign I suppose. That still leaves the previous beers that were lacking body and lifeless.
Thanks for all the tips, guys. I think I have a good platform to work from here. You're the best!

[bigmunchez]

Couple of other thoughts (if you're still interested) - are you fining or filtering? If so what are you using?
Also how is the carbonation on these beers? I reckon there is a sweet spot where the beer seems to just 'pop', but its kind of a bell shaped curve. Too much either way and body seems to suffer.
How long are you conditioning before evaluating these beers?

[beersk]

Couple of other thoughts (if you're still interested) - are you fining or filtering? If so what are you using?
Also how is the carbonation on these beers? I reckon there is a sweet spot where the beer seems to just 'pop', but its kind of a bell shaped curve. Too much either way and body seems to suffer.
How long are you conditioning before evaluating these beers?

I had been fining these with gelatin, I will no longer be doing that as the beers I've found to be fined with gel had seemed oddly thin and the ones that had not been fined had seemed fine to me. I'll just be more patient. I wasn't drinking them any younger than usual. A couple weeks in the keg I'd start taking pulls off the keg to see how it's doing. Sometimes sooner, sometimes longer, depending on what's going on.
Thanks for your thoughts.

[Wort-H.O.G.]

Couple of other thoughts (if you're still interested) - are you fining or filtering? If so what are you using?
Also how is the carbonation on these beers? I reckon there is a sweet spot where the beer seems to just 'pop', but its kind of a bell shaped curve. Too much either way and body seems to suffer.
How long are you conditioning before evaluating these beers?

I had been fining these with gelatin, I will no longer be doing that as the beers I've found to be fined with gel had seemed oddly thin and the ones that had not been fined had seemed fine to me. I'll just be more patient. I wasn't drinking them any younger than usual. A couple weeks in the keg I'd start taking pulls off the keg to see how it's doing. Sometimes sooner, sometimes longer, depending on what's going on.
Thanks for your thoughts.

^^^IMO coincidental. Ive never had a beer fined become thin or watery.

[HoosierBrew]

^^^IMO coincidental. Ive never had a beer fined become thin or watery.

I feel the same. Gelatin hasn't made an impact on body on my beers. It does drop hop aroma some on dry hopped beers IMO. The workaround for me is to crash and fine with gelatin, then keg and dry hop. 

[beersk]

I don't know...it's weird. Just that beers I've fined with gelatin seem to turn out less than stellar. But if I just be patient and give them time, they're fine. Don't know why.

[Wort-H.O.G.]

I don't know...it's weird. Just that beers I've fined with gelatin seem to turn out less than stellar. But if I just be patient and give them time, they're fine. Don't know why.

I understand the frustration....my gut and experience  just tells me its something else....the things we've discussed already.


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[The Beerery]

I have to agree with Beersk. Fined beers, do taste different than just lagered beers. Lets step back though first, to cover the bases.

Chill haze is formed when the beer is cooled, most times around 32-35F, and a haze forms. The colder the beer, the more pronounced the haze becomes. This is due to weak hydrogen bond between polyphenols and protein. As the beer cools the polyphenols are attracted to the protein molecules and attach themselves, the two compounds together make a particle large enough to defuse light, which can be seen. As the beer warms back up to room temperature, the bond is broken and the haze goes away. The two separate molecules are now invisible. If this cooling and warming cycle happens often enough, it cause permanent haze.

Polyphenols are in all wort and occur naturally in barley. Most of the polyphenols are extracted from the grain during the mashing process and the amount extracted can vary based on temperature and pH. All beer contains polyphenols to one level or another. Excessive proteins can also contribute to chill haze as proteins can start to coagulate as the beer is chilled, not to mention it can give polyphenols more protein molecules to create a visible bond.

Yeast haze is pretty simple to understand, it is yeast that has not yet flocculated from the beer and light is being defused by the yeast particles. The suspended yeast may be desirable in some beers like a Hefeweizen, but it most cases it is undesirable and can a harsh flavor component to the beer.

Another obvious form of turbidity is floating particles. Everything from trub to hops can be floating around the beer.

So, with that being said... Filtering and Fining. But really, clear beer starts in the mash tun(hint: second paragraph). We will leave that for another day.


Gelatin(in this example above)- Gelatin is a collagen protein derived from animal by-products and has a strong negative charge. When introduced into chilled beer it will bond with the positively charged yeast and proteins. Since the beer is cold, the gelatin will become gelatinous (what a surprise) and grab the yeast and some of the proteins and drop to the bottom.

So here is the reason, I explained the above about haze and whatnot:

You have to add your 1+1 here. This line:
Since the beer is cold, the gelatin will become gelatinous (what a surprise) and grab the yeast and some of the proteins and drop to the bottom.
We know this right? This is our given...Gelatin Makes clear beer, However...

What else do we have bound to the proteins at this point? Thats right, polyphenols. What are polyphenols? Flavor. SO, by grabbing these molecules using a "bond" instead of just degassing co2, and allowing the beer to do its thing naturally. I believe you do take a hit, at least thats my unscientific theory. 

[beersk]

Thanks, Bryan. That's certainly one way to look at it. I plan to stop using gelatin and just be more patient with my beer like I used to be...

[Kit B]

I have to agree with Beersk. Fined beers, do taste different than just lagered beers. Lets step back though first, to cover the bases.

Chill haze is formed when the beer is cooled, most times around 32-35F, and a haze forms. The colder the beer, the more pronounced the haze becomes. This is due to weak hydrogen bond between polyphenols and protein. As the beer cools the polyphenols are attracted to the protein molecules and attach themselves, the two compounds together make a particle large enough to defuse light, which can be seen. As the beer warms back up to room temperature, the bond is broken and the haze goes away. The two separate molecules are now invisible. If this cooling and warming cycle happens often enough, it cause permanent haze.

Polyphenols are in all wort and occur naturally in barley. Most of the polyphenols are extracted from the grain during the mashing process and the amount extracted can vary based on temperature and pH. All beer contains polyphenols to one level or another. Excessive proteins can also contribute to chill haze as proteins can start to coagulate as the beer is chilled, not to mention it can give polyphenols more protein molecules to create a visible bond.

Yeast haze is pretty simple to understand, it is yeast that has not yet flocculated from the beer and light is being defused by the yeast particles. The suspended yeast may be desirable in some beers like a Hefeweizen, but it most cases it is undesirable and can a harsh flavor component to the beer.

Another obvious form of turbidity is floating particles. Everything from trub to hops can be floating around the beer.

So, with that being said... Filtering and Fining. But really, clear beer starts in the mash tun(hint: second paragraph). We will leave that for another day.


Gelatin(in this example above)- Gelatin is a collagen protein derived from animal by-products and has a strong negative charge. When introduced into chilled beer it will bond with the positively charged yeast and proteins. Since the beer is cold, the gelatin will become gelatinous (what a surprise) and grab the yeast and some of the proteins and drop to the bottom.

So here is the reason, I explained the above about haze and whatnot:

You have to add your 1+1 here. This line:
Since the beer is cold, the gelatin will become gelatinous (what a surprise) and grab the yeast and some of the proteins and drop to the bottom.
We know this right? This is our given...Gelatin Makes clear beer, However...

What else do we have bound to the proteins at this point? Thats right, polyphenols. What are polyphenols? Flavor. SO, by grabbing these molecules using a "bond" instead of just degassing co2, and allowing the beer to do its thing naturally. I believe you do take a hit, at least thats my unscientific theory. 

Nice.
I was just reading somewhere that you didn't share brewing-related knowledge.
I guess some people don't necessarily pay attention.

[erockrph]

I have to agree with Beersk. Fined beers, do taste different than just lagered beers. Lets step back though first, to cover the bases.

Chill haze is formed when the beer is cooled, most times around 32-35F, and a haze forms. The colder the beer, the more pronounced the haze becomes. This is due to weak hydrogen bond between polyphenols and protein. As the beer cools the polyphenols are attracted to the protein molecules and attach themselves, the two compounds together make a particle large enough to defuse light, which can be seen. As the beer warms back up to room temperature, the bond is broken and the haze goes away. The two separate molecules are now invisible. If this cooling and warming cycle happens often enough, it cause permanent haze.

Polyphenols are in all wort and occur naturally in barley. Most of the polyphenols are extracted from the grain during the mashing process and the amount extracted can vary based on temperature and pH. All beer contains polyphenols to one level or another. Excessive proteins can also contribute to chill haze as proteins can start to coagulate as the beer is chilled, not to mention it can give polyphenols more protein molecules to create a visible bond.

Yeast haze is pretty simple to understand, it is yeast that has not yet flocculated from the beer and light is being defused by the yeast particles. The suspended yeast may be desirable in some beers like a Hefeweizen, but it most cases it is undesirable and can a harsh flavor component to the beer.

Another obvious form of turbidity is floating particles. Everything from trub to hops can be floating around the beer.

So, with that being said... Filtering and Fining. But really, clear beer starts in the mash tun(hint: second paragraph). We will leave that for another day.


Gelatin(in this example above)- Gelatin is a collagen protein derived from animal by-products and has a strong negative charge. When introduced into chilled beer it will bond with the positively charged yeast and proteins. Since the beer is cold, the gelatin will become gelatinous (what a surprise) and grab the yeast and some of the proteins and drop to the bottom.

So here is the reason, I explained the above about haze and whatnot:

You have to add your 1+1 here. This line:
Since the beer is cold, the gelatin will become gelatinous (what a surprise) and grab the yeast and some of the proteins and drop to the bottom.
We know this right? This is our given...Gelatin Makes clear beer, However...

What else do we have bound to the proteins at this point? Thats right, polyphenols. What are polyphenols? Flavor. SO, by grabbing these molecules using a "bond" instead of just degassing co2, and allowing the beer to do its thing naturally. I believe you do take a hit, at least thats my unscientific theory. 

I'm following so far. Maybe I'm missing something, but aside from the time required to achieve the same level of clarity, how does this differ from cold-conditioning and letting the same particles drop out on their own? Just throwing this out for debate, I have no skin in the game either way.

[RPIScotty]

I have to agree with Beersk. Fined beers, do taste different than just lagered beers. Lets step back though first, to cover the bases.

Chill haze is formed when the beer is cooled, most times around 32-35F, and a haze forms. The colder the beer, the more pronounced the haze becomes. This is due to weak hydrogen bond between polyphenols and protein. As the beer cools the polyphenols are attracted to the protein molecules and attach themselves, the two compounds together make a particle large enough to defuse light, which can be seen. As the beer warms back up to room temperature, the bond is broken and the haze goes away. The two separate molecules are now invisible. If this cooling and warming cycle happens often enough, it cause permanent haze.

Polyphenols are in all wort and occur naturally in barley. Most of the polyphenols are extracted from the grain during the mashing process and the amount extracted can vary based on temperature and pH. All beer contains polyphenols to one level or another. Excessive proteins can also contribute to chill haze as proteins can start to coagulate as the beer is chilled, not to mention it can give polyphenols more protein molecules to create a visible bond.

Yeast haze is pretty simple to understand, it is yeast that has not yet flocculated from the beer and light is being defused by the yeast particles. The suspended yeast may be desirable in some beers like a Hefeweizen, but it most cases it is undesirable and can a harsh flavor component to the beer.

Another obvious form of turbidity is floating particles. Everything from trub to hops can be floating around the beer.

So, with that being said... Filtering and Fining. But really, clear beer starts in the mash tun(hint: second paragraph). We will leave that for another day.


Gelatin(in this example above)- Gelatin is a collagen protein derived from animal by-products and has a strong negative charge. When introduced into chilled beer it will bond with the positively charged yeast and proteins. Since the beer is cold, the gelatin will become gelatinous (what a surprise) and grab the yeast and some of the proteins and drop to the bottom.

So here is the reason, I explained the above about haze and whatnot:

You have to add your 1+1 here. This line:
Since the beer is cold, the gelatin will become gelatinous (what a surprise) and grab the yeast and some of the proteins and drop to the bottom.
We know this right? This is our given...Gelatin Makes clear beer, However...

What else do we have bound to the proteins at this point? Thats right, polyphenols. What are polyphenols? Flavor. SO, by grabbing these molecules using a "bond" instead of just degassing co2, and allowing the beer to do its thing naturally. I believe you do take a hit, at least thats my unscientific theory. 

Nice.
I was just reading somewhere that you didn't share brewing-related knowledge.
I guess some people don't necessarily pay attention.

This is a great thread, with everyone having an open dialogue and sharing ideas and information.

I see the point in your comment but it's stirring the pot, no? No need to dredge up old stuff in the new year.


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[narvin]

I'm following so far. Maybe I'm missing something, but aside from the time required to achieve the same level of clarity, how does this differ from cold-conditioning and letting the same particles drop out on their own? Just throwing this out for debate, I have no skin in the game either way.

Cold crashing involves a few variables, including time, temperature, and particle size.  Larger particles will fall out faster, and there is also coagulation that happens with proteins and polyphenols that encourages clearing.

I think the takeaway is that gelatin binds indiscriminately, and clears immediately.  Of course, you can use different amounts of gelatin, and I will for different beers.  Maybe you can overdo it... I'm sure more testing is in order.

[Joe Sr.]

I'm following so far. Maybe I'm missing something, but aside from the time required to achieve the same level of clarity, how does this differ from cold-conditioning and letting the same particles drop out on their own? Just throwing this out for debate, I have no skin in the game either way.

Cold crashing involves a few variables, including time, temperature, and particle size.  Larger particles will fall out faster, and there is also coagulation that happens with proteins and polyphenols that encourages clearing.

I think the takeaway is that gelatin binds indiscriminately, and clears immediately.  Of course, you can use different amounts of gelatin, and I will for different beers.  Maybe you can overdo it... I'm sure more testing is in order.

I had the same thought as erock.  I can get brilliantly clear beers with time.  Is gelatin actually pulling out more than will otherwise precipitate out?  What about isinglass?

I realize I also don't know if chill haze will drop out with time. I suppose it should, assuming the beer is stored at a temp where the haze forms.  Never really thought about it before.