[klickitat jim]

Isn't the whole thing a straw man argument? That one method sucks because the ph drops when you drain the first runnings? Like, predicting sparge ph hasn't been invented yet? If that's the case than the only method that works in no sparge and only with grain bills that cooperate with your specific water profile. Because if we can't predict and adjust our water, then may as well claim that we can't make any water additions

Or has my ph meter been lying to me when it says that my sparge water predictions were correct?

How much does your measured pH rise during your sparges? Kai Troester's website says you're fine up to 6.0. Above that is a problem for delicate pale beers like pilsners.

It doesnt rise, really. I use a water calculator (Brewer's Friend) and adjust my sparge water before adding it to the grain bed. Its normally accurate. I pull pH samples about 15 minutes after mash in and about 15 minutes after adding sparge water.

[klickitat jim]

Anybody who does 2 or more batch sparges is pretty much wasting their time as well as causing potential pH issues.

Are you saying a double batch sparge is a bad idea?

It's a counting thing. Denny and I have went back and forth about it for year. To me EVERY draining is a batch so a batch sparge which drains and then recharges and drains again is TWO batches. Denny goes with the methodology that the first one is not a batch. He can correct me if I have once again misunderstood his nomenclature, the old coot!!!

That is exactly how I believed it to be.
Have I been defining a "double batch sparge" incorrectly?

My understanding of the progression,  No Sparge - Sparge - Double Sparge... if adding mash water, draining, adding sparge water = double sparge, then no sparge would be just dumping dry grain into the boil kettel. Most batch spargers refer to a Mash followed by a Sparge. IE single sparge.

[charles1968]

Good to know Brewersfriend is accurate - that's the one I use.

[klickitat jim]

Good to know Brewersfriend is accurate - that's the one I use.

I used to be randomly off by .1-.2 until I learned how to enter the data properly,  but now I'm rarely off. In fact with rebrews, I usually dont measure ph until the last final gravity/quick carb sample.

[kgs]

Anybody who does 2 or more batch sparges is pretty much wasting their time as well as causing potential pH issues.

Are you saying a double batch sparge is a bad idea?

It's a counting thing. Denny and I have went back and forth about it for year. To me EVERY draining is a batch so a batch sparge which drains and then recharges and drains again is TWO batches. Denny goes with the methodology that the first one is not a batch. He can correct me if I have once again misunderstood his nomenclature, the old coot!!!

That is exactly how I believed it to be.
Have I been defining a "double batch sparge" incorrectly?

My understanding of the progression,  No Sparge - Sparge - Double Sparge... if adding mash water, draining, adding sparge water = double sparge, then no sparge would be just dumping dry grain into the boil kettel. Most batch spargers refer to a Mash followed by a Sparge. IE single sparge.

Agreed. If what I do is a sparge, then I'm confused. Mash. Drain. Boil. So (STAND BACK... I'M ABOUT TO USE LIBRARY SCIENCE... though you could Google it) I looked this up and the definition of sparge is to sprinkle, from the Latin "spargere," which means, big surprise, to sprinkle. I don't sprinkle, I drain. (That sounds like it should be on a tee-shirt.) Anyway, I interpret no-sparge as a practice that is common for drainers and BIAB folks, and involves the un-rinsing of grain (and rinse comes from an Old French term that means rinse... sometimes dictionaries are ridiculous). No-sparge has definitely changed the flavor and other characteristics of my brewing, but I like it because a) it's fast and b) it imparts a "difference" I find interesting. As a small-batch brewer, sparging would only be useful if it helped me replicate a recipe.

[norcaljp]

Why do people argue about which way to rinse grain?

In all of the hundreds (thousands?) of beers that I've judged, never once have I said something like "that one tastes like it's fly sparged".

While I really doubt there would be any difference, I am curious to see if, adjusted for efficiency, the two methods would produce an identical beer. That seems to me to be more in line with how most people brew a recipe. Your grain bill is adjusted to meet a specific O.G. based upon the known efficiency of your system.

Would there be any perceptible differences?

[denny]

Anybody who does 2 or more batch sparges is pretty much wasting their time as well as causing potential pH issues.

Are you saying a double batch sparge is a bad idea?

I'm saying it's not necessarily a good idea.  If your mash tun is big enough to hold all the sparge water at once, I've found so little increase in efficiency by doing more than one sparge that for me it isn't worth it. I get 83-85% with a single sparge addition and that's fine with me.

[denny]

Anybody who does 2 or more batch sparges is pretty much wasting their time as well as causing potential pH issues.

Are you saying a double batch sparge is a bad idea?

It's a counting thing. Denny and I have went back and forth about it for year. To me EVERY draining is a batch so a batch sparge which drains and then recharges and drains again is TWO batches. Denny goes with the methodology that the first one is not a batch. He can correct me if I have once again misunderstood his nomenclature, the old coot!!!

More of a codger than a coot....maybe with a touch of geezer....

to my way of thinking, the initial mash drain is not a batch sparge...it's draining a mash tun.  Sparging doesn't happen until after you add more water.

[denny]

Anybody who does 2 or more batch sparges is pretty much wasting their time as well as causing potential pH issues.

Are you saying a double batch sparge is a bad idea?

It's a counting thing. Denny and I have went back and forth about it for year. To me EVERY draining is a batch so a batch sparge which drains and then recharges and drains again is TWO batches. Denny goes with the methodology that the first one is not a batch. He can correct me if I have once again misunderstood his nomenclature, the old coot!!!

That is exactly how I believed it to be.
Have I been defining a "double batch sparge" incorrectly?

My understanding of the progression,  No Sparge - Sparge - Double Sparge... if adding mash water, draining, adding sparge water = double sparge, then no sparge would be just dumping dry grain into the boil kettel. Most batch spargers refer to a Mash followed by a Sparge. IE single sparge.

Nope...add mash water, drain, add sparge water, drain = single sparge.  Add mash water, drain, add sparge water, drain, add more sparge water, drain = double sparge

[klickitat jim]

Anybody who does 2 or more batch sparges is pretty much wasting their time as well as causing potential pH issues.

Are you saying a double batch sparge is a bad idea?

It's a counting thing. Denny and I have went back and forth about it for year. To me EVERY draining is a batch so a batch sparge which drains and then recharges and drains again is TWO batches. Denny goes with the methodology that the first one is not a batch. He can correct me if I have once again misunderstood his nomenclature, the old coot!!!

That is exactly how I believed it to be.
Have I been defining a "double batch sparge" incorrectly?

My understanding of the progression,  No Sparge - Sparge - Double Sparge... if adding mash water, draining, adding sparge water = double sparge, then no sparge would be just dumping dry grain into the boil kettel. Most batch spargers refer to a Mash followed by a Sparge. IE single sparge.

Nope...add mash water, drain, add sparge water, drain = single sparge.  Add mash water, drain, add sparge water, drain, add more sparge water, drain = double sparge

I was right

[denny]

My reading comprehensi9n sucks in the AM.....yes, you were! 

[ynotbrusum]

I have found that using the software correctly and monitoring gravity to make sure the final runnings of a batch sparge don't fall below 1.010 results in an adequate assurance that pH has stayed in line with the expected parameters.  Typically my gravity on the very last runnings is 1.015-1.025, depending on the beer recipe.  This way I can merely check with my refractometer and don't need to get my pH meter and its buffers....

I have calculated using all salts and acid additions in the mash in Brunwater and found it to be very reliable (but I note the recent discussion regarding Lovibond adjustments for certain malts means you may have to test your base malts for correcting the input).