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Author Topic: pH Meter: Balancing cost and quality  (Read 8503 times)

RPIScotty

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pH Meter: Balancing cost and quality
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2016, 03:48:08 pm »
I have MW-101 now, and am happy with it. Buy once, cry once.

As Narvin said, you need the calibration solutions, storage solutions, and you can buy the electrode cleaning solutions too. You will have $40 or so invested if you get all 4. That is just to maintain the probe and make sure you are accurate. Why not spend the incremental $ to get a good meter over the basic meter.

I agree. The answers to this thread are exactly what I was looking for. I just wanted confirmation that a cheap, accurate unit existed or not, and if not, what the best unit would be.


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Offline pfabsits

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Re: pH Meter: Balancing cost and quality
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2016, 08:38:12 am »
I'm looking to get a pH meter. I understand everyone has their preference and am looking for objective opinions on sub $30-$40 pen style meters.

I'm not looking for the supreme accuracy and  precision of the more expensive units but would like something that can confirm my Bru'n water predictions with better accuracy than strips.

Any suggestions would be welcome.


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The best $41.00 pH meter is the HI98100 Hanna Checker pH meter.
http://hannainst.com/hi98100-checkerr-plus-ph-tester.html

Has: auto-two point calibration, replaceable pH electrode, stability indicator and low battery level indicator.
Does not have: ATC, temperature readout

The probe supplied is an open junction design. Make sure you place storage solution in the cap when not in use. An open junction is susceptible to drying out since it is a hard gel layer.  Do not use above 50 oC since the gel (agar like) will melt. The open junction should provide a good response time in water. Just calibrate at the saem temperature the water is. The packets of buffer have a chart that will tell you the solution pH at a particular temperature (not ATC). This is the value to use for calibration.

The Checker is supplied with carrying case, pH 4 and 7 sachet, and cleaning solution sachet.

The Cadillac of testers is the pHep 5 HI98128. That is approaching $100.00. The HI98128 is the same electronics found in some portables. The main difference will be the probe. A small cartridge style and compared to traditional field probe (12mm  x 160mm) with BNC connector.

The best portable on the planet is the HI98191but at $565 it is out of the reach of most hobbyist. Too many features to list but basically a professional portable meter.

But for $41 dollars the HI98100 Checker pH meter is good meter.

The trick to long life is in the maintenance. Rinse between measurements, periodically cleaning and using a storage solution.
One of the avid home brewers that work for Hanna Instruments

RPIScotty

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Re: pH Meter: Balancing cost and quality
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2016, 09:26:45 am »

I'm looking to get a pH meter. I understand everyone has their preference and am looking for objective opinions on sub $30-$40 pen style meters.

I'm not looking for the supreme accuracy and  precision of the more expensive units but would like something that can confirm my Bru'n water predictions with better accuracy than strips.

Any suggestions would be welcome.


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The best $41.00 pH meter is the HI98100 Hanna Checker pH meter.
http://hannainst.com/hi98100-checkerr-plus-ph-tester.html

Has: auto-two point calibration, replaceable pH electrode, stability indicator and low battery level indicator.
Does not have: ATC, temperature readout

The probe supplied is an open junction design. Make sure you place storage solution in the cap when not in use. An open junction is susceptible to drying out since it is a hard gel layer.  Do not use above 50 oC since the gel (agar like) will melt. The open junction should provide a good response time in water. Just calibrate at the saem temperature the water is. The packets of buffer have a chart that will tell you the solution pH at a particular temperature (not ATC). This is the value to use for calibration.

The Checker is supplied with carrying case, pH 4 and 7 sachet, and cleaning solution sachet.

The Cadillac of testers is the pHep 5 HI98128. That is approaching $100.00. The HI98128 is the same electronics found in some portables. The main difference will be the probe. A small cartridge style and compared to traditional field probe (12mm  x 160mm) with BNC connector.

The best portable on the planet is the HI98191but at $565 it is out of the reach of most hobbyist. Too many features to list but basically a professional portable meter.

But for $41 dollars the HI98100 Checker pH meter is good meter.

The trick to long life is in the maintenance. Rinse between measurements, periodically cleaning and using a storage solution.

This was the meter that made me post. As discussed in this thread though, the accuracy is poor.


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Offline AmandaK

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Re: pH Meter: Balancing cost and quality
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2016, 10:40:07 am »
Thermoworks has one. Never used it, but I like my thermopen.

http://www.thermoworks.com/products/ph/

Have the 8689 and love it. It replaced my Hanna pHep5.

3 point calibration, with the ability to have the unit tell you if the slope is far enough off that it's time for a probe replacement - much better than guessing. Probe cap actually is liquid tight, unlike the pHep5, so storage solution stays put. Holds a calibration for about 3 weeks.
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Offline pfabsits

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Re: pH Meter: Balancing cost and quality
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2016, 12:50:02 pm »

I'm looking to get a pH meter. I understand everyone has their preference and am looking for objective opinions on sub $30-$40 pen style meters.

I'm not looking for the supreme accuracy and  precision of the more expensive units but would like something that can confirm my Bru'n water predictions with better accuracy than strips.

Any suggestions would be welcome.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The best $41.00 pH meter is the HI98100 Hanna Checker pH meter.
http://hannainst.com/hi98100-checkerr-plus-ph-tester.html

Has: auto-two point calibration, replaceable pH electrode, stability indicator and low battery level indicator.
Does not have: ATC, temperature readout

The probe supplied is an open junction design. Make sure you place storage solution in the cap when not in use. An open junction is susceptible to drying out since it is a hard gel layer.  Do not use above 50 oC since the gel (agar like) will melt. The open junction should provide a good response time in water. Just calibrate at the saem temperature the water is. The packets of buffer have a chart that will tell you the solution pH at a particular temperature (not ATC). This is the value to use for calibration.

The Checker is supplied with carrying case, pH 4 and 7 sachet, and cleaning solution sachet.

The Cadillac of testers is the pHep 5 HI98128. That is approaching $100.00. The HI98128 is the same electronics found in some portables. The main difference will be the probe. A small cartridge style and compared to traditional field probe (12mm  x 160mm) with BNC connector.

The best portable on the planet is the HI98191but at $565 it is out of the reach of most hobbyist. Too many features to list but basically a professional portable meter.

But for $41 dollars the HI98100 Checker pH meter is good meter.

The trick to long life is in the maintenance. Rinse between measurements, periodically cleaning and using a storage solution.

This was the meter that made me post. As discussed in this thread though, the accuracy is poor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It would be surprising to see if anyone actually achieves the accuracy as stated by a meter. The accuracy statement is the the mV accuracy of the meter itself and not the complete system. To obtain a high level of accuracy +/- 0.05 pH the following would be needed:
1) pH probe with an offset +/- 15 mV and slope >95%
2) Calibrated in fresh buffers
3) pH probe is properly hydrated
4) Use of a magnetic stirrer for mixing
5) Proper temperature equilibration time for the pH and reference cells to match sample temp.

Since most people do not monitor offset and slope or use best practices it is very likely that a high level of accuracy is realized. We recently did a study on measuring pH of cheese, dough and meat with at least 3different probes for each sample (direct and slurry readings). Overall with new probes there was variation of up to 0.2 pH units.  It was found that has more DI water was added to a sample (1 part product to 2, 10 parts water) that the readings drifted away from a direct measurement.  It could be due to a decrease in conductivity of the sample (i.e. next time use 0.1M KCl for water to mix with). Either way there was some variation. I have seen this many times in which two probes read the same in a buffer but differ slightly in actual sample. 

As far as three point calibration I would not use that as a determining factor when deciding on a pH meter. Most meters use a segmented slope in which the readings are based on the buffers that bracket it. For example, i calibrate to pH 4 , 7 and 10 and measure pH 5.2. The slope that he meter uses to calculate the reading is pH 7 and 4. The slope from pH 7 to 10 is not used. A meter can display an average slope which would be the average of the two but the meter should use the actual slope of two points since error would be introduced by the average slope. Basically slope A (7 & 4) for a pH electrode can be different than slope B (7 & 10).

For users of the pHep 5 place a small piece of sponge (portion of Scotch Brite pad)in the well and wet with solution. This will maintain the hydrated layer. Another advantage of the pHep 5 is that it does have a extractable junction. If the readings are drifting then pull out 1/8" of the junction to expose new surface. The flow rate from the junction will be like new providing for fast response time.




One of the avid home brewers that work for Hanna Instruments

Offline pfabsits

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Re: pH Meter: Balancing cost and quality
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2016, 01:04:33 pm »
Just a point of reference there are two different Hanna pH Checkers. The first is the HI98103 with manual calibration that was introduced in 1991.

The HI98100 is a new version launched in 2015 that changed manual calibration to automatic and added stability and battery life indicators. The meter is sealed up well with a  rubber o-ring on the battery compartment but is not marketed as waterproof. The new meter also has a larger LCD and is now supplied with a plastic carrying case and packets of calibration solution.

One of the avid home brewers that work for Hanna Instruments

Offline mabrungard

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Re: pH Meter: Balancing cost and quality
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2016, 02:18:02 pm »
The trick to long life is in the maintenance. Rinse between measurements, periodically cleaning and using a storage solution.

Good advice. I assume you are somehow associated with Hanna? You present information that is far above a hobbyist's.
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Offline jimmykx250

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Re: pH Meter: Balancing cost and quality
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2016, 05:41:57 am »
Just heard an interview with John Palmer and he stated he thought the colorphast brand strips were adequate for the home brewer and that he wasn't up for the cost/maintenance the probe styles. I'm just starting to get into the water quality issue and that's why i'm asking. Anyone have any input on these strips or am i kidding myself? I don't know if i need .05 accuracy when it comes to ph. 
Jimmykx250

Offline Philbrew

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Re: pH Meter: Balancing cost and quality
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2016, 10:37:00 am »
Thermoworks has one. Never used it, but I like my thermopen.

http://www.thermoworks.com/products/ph/

Have the 8689 and love it. It replaced my Hanna pHep5.

3 point calibration, with the ability to have the unit tell you if the slope is far enough off that it's time for a probe replacement - much better than guessing. Probe cap actually is liquid tight, unlike the pHep5, so storage solution stays put. Holds a calibration for about 3 weeks.
I bought the Thermoworks 8689 on Amanda's recommendation and so far (3 uses) it has worked well.  The instruction pamphlet could be better.
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Offline narcout

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Re: pH Meter: Balancing cost and quality
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2016, 01:44:19 pm »
Just heard an interview with John Palmer and he stated he thought the colorphast brand strips were adequate for the home brewer and that he wasn't up for the cost/maintenance the probe styles. I'm just starting to get into the water quality issue and that's why i'm asking. Anyone have any input on these strips or am i kidding myself? I don't know if i need .05 accuracy when it comes to ph.

I used them for a long time.  My experience is that they are ok at letting you know if you are in the correct range, but you can't really pin down an exact reading.

They do tend to read about 0.3 too low as Kaiser demonstrated.   http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=An_Evaluation_of_the_suitability_of_colorpHast_strips_for_pH_measurements_in_home_brewing

They also seem to read the same whether or not you cool the sample to room temperature or just dip them in the mash (at least that was my experience).

$20 for a box of 100 is the best price I've seen: http://www.sanitationtools.com/products/colorphast-ph-strips-single-box

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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: pH Meter: Balancing cost and quality
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2016, 01:47:09 pm »
Just heard an interview with John Palmer and he stated he thought the colorphast brand strips were adequate for the home brewer and that he wasn't up for the cost/maintenance the probe styles. I'm just starting to get into the water quality issue and that's why i'm asking. Anyone have any input on these strips or am i kidding myself? I don't know if i need .05 accuracy when it comes to ph.

I used them for a long time.  My experience is that they are ok at letting you know if you are in the correct range, but you can't really pin down an exact reading.

They do tend to read about 0.3 too low as Kaiser demonstrated.   http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=An_Evaluation_of_the_suitability_of_colorpHast_strips_for_pH_measurements_in_home_brewing

They also seem to read the same whether or not you cool the sample to room temperature or just dip them in the mash (at least that was my experience).

$20 for a box of 100 is the best price I've seen: http://www.sanitationtools.com/products/colorphast-ph-strips-single-box




I still use them and that's been my experience, too. I need to break down and get a meter.
Jon H.

Offline denny

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Re: pH Meter: Balancing cost and quality
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2016, 02:30:30 pm »
Just heard an interview with John Palmer and he stated he thought the colorphast brand strips were adequate for the home brewer and that he wasn't up for the cost/maintenance the probe styles. I'm just starting to get into the water quality issue and that's why i'm asking. Anyone have any input on these strips or am i kidding myself? I don't know if i need .05 accuracy when it comes to ph.

Having used both the ColorpHast strips and a meter, I can tell you there's a reason I use a meter these days and not the strips.
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Offline jimmykx250

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Re: pH Meter: Balancing cost and quality
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2016, 02:31:11 pm »
But do you think your beer will improve that much? I guess my question is will the added accuracy really be detectable in the taste of the beer? I don't know if I could manipulate mash ph that closely? I'm still learning.


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Offline coolman26

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Re: pH Meter: Balancing cost and quality
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2016, 03:28:19 pm »
I wouldn't waste money on a meter that has an accuracy worse than +/- 0.05.  Also remember that the probe doesn't last more than a couple of years.  I got the MW102 because of the .02 accuracy and because you can replace the probe for $30 when it becomes necessary.

Agree 1000%  I bought cheap twice.  I could have saved money in the long run had I bought a good one.  I'm looking at one from Omega.  I don't know Claudius B, but he recommended it and I know he is knowledgeable.  It is at that near $100 range.  Last one was a Milwaukee 56 I think.  Never did work right.  Buy once with a replaceable probe IMO.
Jeff B

Offline tommymorris

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Re: pH Meter: Balancing cost and quality
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2016, 05:47:40 pm »
I have $12 meter. It told me that Brunwater does a good job estimating my mash ph. I don't have any more calibration solution so I have abandoned the meter. But, with that validation I feel I can just use Brunwater to tweak my intended ph and go from there. In other words, if I want a lower ph I just target a lower ph in Brunwater and trust the ph moved that direction. This of course is not a perfect system, but, I think it is good enough. At least for now.

PS. I think switching to RO water and Brunwater has definitely helped my beer. I am not sure I would get similar improvement from a $100+ worth of ph meter and calibration solution.