Author Topic: Investigating the Bad Palates Argument | A Graphical Look At xBmt Performance  (Read 2667 times)

Offline Phil_M

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My Coors Light drinking neighbor, on the other hand, a dude who vehemently hates IPA because it tastes "soapy" was closer to 60% accurate, and he has no clue what he's looking for.

Could be interesting if he maintains that performance - he might be your star taster.

I know some folks who are huge in to Budweiser, as in back in the day they'd travel to the different breweries and compare the product. I wonder how sensitive their palates are, as they were able to distinguish minute differences in a pretty flavorless beer.
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Offline Frankenbrew

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My Coors Light drinking neighbor, on the other hand, a dude who vehemently hates IPA because it tastes "soapy" was closer to 60% accurate, and he has no clue what he's looking for.

Could be interesting if he maintains that performance - he might be your star taster.

I know some folks who are huge in to Budweiser, as in back in the day they'd travel to the different breweries and compare the product. I wonder how sensitive their palates are, as they were able to distinguish minute differences in a pretty flavorless beer.

I find this hilarious!
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Offline brulosopher

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My Coors Light drinking neighbor, on the other hand, a dude who vehemently hates IPA because it tastes "soapy" was closer to 60% accurate, and he has no clue what he's looking for.

Could be interesting if he maintains that performance - he might be your star taster.

I know some folks who are huge in to Budweiser, as in back in the day they'd travel to the different breweries and compare the product. I wonder how sensitive their palates are, as they were able to distinguish minute differences in a pretty flavorless beer.

I can reliably distinguish Coors Light, Bud Light, and Miller Light. No sh!t.

Offline majorvices

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I just gotta say, this was my favorite xBmt experiment thus far. Very good stuff!
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 02:33:50 AM by majorvices »

Offline neddles

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I just gotta say, this was my favorite xBmt experiment thus far. Very good stuff!
Was just like the other xBmts as far as I could tell. :)

Offline majorvices

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I just gotta say, this was my favorite xBmt experiment thus far. Very good stuff!
Was just like the other xBmts as far as I could tell. :)

I like all his experiments but this one is something along the lines I have been thinking for a very long time.

Offline neddles

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I just gotta say, this was my favorite xBmt experiment thus far. Very good stuff!
Was just like the other xBmts as far as I could tell. :)

I like all his experiments but this one is something along the lines I have been thinking for a very long time.
I completely agree with you here. My prior comment was apparently a poor joke.

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Results:

1)  Follow good brewing practices = good beer

2)  Enter a brewing contest = crap shoot
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Offline mabrungard

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Since this is allied with this subject, I'm carrying on here.

I do find that untrained palates are often less likely to discern differences in beer flavor and character. When tasting panels are convened in commercial settings, they are often trained and graded for sensitivity in a number of sensory areas. I'm concerned that the use of 'regular' untrained tasters that have no guidance as to what differences they should be looking for or an ability to recognize them, leaves this testing result with an overly skewed result of...can't tell a difference. Its not until you have a 'clubbed over the head' difference in beers that a viable result can be noted. I feel that's not good for science and not good for brewing improvement.

While I applaud the explorations that Brulosophy conducts, the results point out the mediocrity of an untrained palate that has no idea of what it might need to note as a difference. Since most of these tests compare nuanced differences, it is probably also appropriate to include more focused assessments and comparisons using trained palates to help discern if there are differences. I like that the authors of these various exbeeriments often try to explore differences in their beers with their full knowledge of their brewing differences, but I'd like to see more trained palates included in that assessment. Triangle testing does help reduce randomness in the assessments, but I would like to know that there has been an opportunity for the taster to focus on what the potential difference or flaw is and if its really perceptible.

Since these beers are often decent, similar beers, I'm not surprised that the tasters can't perceive a difference between them. But I don't want to automatically apply a finding of 'makes no statistical difference' to an experimental trial with that measurement alone. Remember, the majority of beer drinkers think that Budmilloors is great beer. 
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Offline bayareabrewer

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My Coors Light drinking neighbor, on the other hand, a dude who vehemently hates IPA because it tastes "soapy" was closer to 60% accurate, and he has no clue what he's looking for.

Could be interesting if he maintains that performance - he might be your star taster.

I know some folks who are huge in to Budweiser, as in back in the day they'd travel to the different breweries and compare the product. I wonder how sensitive their palates are, as they were able to distinguish minute differences in a pretty flavorless beer.

I can reliably distinguish Coors Light, Bud Light, and Miller Light. No sh!t.

Where are your tastings taking place? What setting?

Offline denny

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Since this is allied with this subject, I'm carrying on here.

I do find that untrained palates are often less likely to discern differences in beer flavor and character. When tasting panels are convened in commercial settings, they are often trained and graded for sensitivity in a number of sensory areas. I'm concerned that the use of 'regular' untrained tasters that have no guidance as to what differences they should be looking for or an ability to recognize them, leaves this testing result with an overly skewed result of...can't tell a difference. Its not until you have a 'clubbed over the head' difference in beers that a viable result can be noted. I feel that's not good for science and not good for brewing improvement.

While I applaud the explorations that Brulosophy conducts, the results point out the mediocrity of an untrained palate that has no idea of what it might need to note as a difference. Since most of these tests compare nuanced differences, it is probably also appropriate to include more focused assessments and comparisons using trained palates to help discern if there are differences. I like that the authors of these various exbeeriments often try to explore differences in their beers with their full knowledge of their brewing differences, but I'd like to see more trained palates included in that assessment. Triangle testing does help reduce randomness in the assessments, but I would like to know that there has been an opportunity for the taster to focus on what the potential difference or flaw is and if its really perceptible.

Since these beers are often decent, similar beers, I'm not surprised that the tasters can't perceive a difference between them. But I don't want to automatically apply a finding of 'makes no statistical difference' to an experimental trial with that measurement alone. Remember, the majority of beer drinkers think that Budmilloors is great beer.

Martin, keep in mind that in general these experiments are not like judging a comp.  I know that I, and I think Drew and the Brulosophy guys, are more concerned with what a "normal" beer drinker perceives and their overall enjoyment of the beer.  I think what you're talking about is different than the purposes we all have in mind.
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Offline mabrungard

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Martin, keep in mind that in general these experiments are not like judging a comp.  I know that I, and I think Drew and the Brulosophy guys, are more concerned with what a "normal" beer drinker perceives and their overall enjoyment of the beer. 

I agree with you, but my problem with these results is that people are considering them as gospel and this form of testing amounts to a single data point that may not say anything definitive. Yet brewers are considering that single data point definitive...almost like alternative facts from the internet.
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Offline denny

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Martin, keep in mind that in general these experiments are not like judging a comp.  I know that I, and I think Drew and the Brulosophy guys, are more concerned with what a "normal" beer drinker perceives and their overall enjoyment of the beer. 

I agree with you, but my problem with these results is that people are considering them as gospel and this form of testing amounts to a single data point that may not say anything definitive. Yet brewers are considering that single data point definitive...almost like alternative facts from the internet.

Unfortunately, we have no control over how people take the experiments, no matter how often we say that it's just a data point.  That's not our fault.  But it will be one of the things that the 4 of us talk about in our seminar in June.
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Offline Phil_M

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Unfortunately, we have no control over how people take the experiments, no matter how often we say that it's just a data point.  That's not our fault.  But it will be one of the things that the 4 of us talk about in our seminar in June.

Bingo. "Don't shoot the messanger."

True, how things are presented matters, but not everyone is going to take away the message you attempted to convey. You could waste a lot of energy trying to be perfectly "politically" correct in this regard.
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.