Author Topic: diacetyl in lagers  (Read 1869 times)

Offline gman23

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diacetyl in lagers
« on: January 28, 2016, 06:16:05 PM »
My red lager has a caramel and almost butterscotch like sweetness to it. I know that butterscotch is usually associated with diacetyl. What other signs should I be looking for?

The beer finished with a higher FG than it should have (discussed in another thread) so at first I assumed the sweetness was related to that and maybe the fact that I used 100% Red X for the first time and am not familiar with it's flavor profile. It wasn't until the other day that I realized that it might be diacetyl. I did a diacetyl rest at 62F for a couple of days. I poured one the other night and that character seemed to have faded a bit but it is still pretty prevalent.

Do you think this could be the combination of high FG (1.015), Red X, and a bit of diacetyl?
On Tap/Bottled: Hopfenbier, Kurbis Marzen, Red Rye, Vienna Lager,      

Fermenting: Imperial Porter
Up Next: Maibock, Braunbier

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: diacetyl in lagers
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2016, 06:29:54 PM »
Two step process:

1) Pour yourself a sample of standard commercial American ale.  Swoosh it around in your mouth.  With your tongue, feel around inside your mouth, especially the roof of your mouth.  Okay... that's "normal".  That's the baseline.

2) Pour a sample of your lager.  Swoosh it around in your mouth.  With your tongue, feel around inside your mouth, especially the roof of your mouth.  Does it feel a lot more slick or slippery in there this time?  That's diacetyl.  But if you go back and forth and you can't detect it in the mouthfeel, then you *might* not have diacetyl.  You might still need a judge to know for certain.

Hope this helps.
Dave

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Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: diacetyl in lagers
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2016, 06:30:24 PM »
might be just me but its always been butter...not butterscotch from D.  it should stand out pretty much like imitation butter flavor....hard to miss and for me, I pick it up instantly in beer even in small amounts

redx maltiness could be it..especially with higher FG.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: diacetyl in lagers
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2016, 06:32:02 PM »
might be just me but its always been butter...not butterscotch from D.  it should stand out pretty much like imitation butter flavor....hard to miss and for me, I pick it up instantly in beer even in small amounts

redx maltiness could be it..especially with higher FG.

I agree with all of this.  If you detect a "popcorn" flavor, that can also be a sign of diacetyl.  But again, unfortunately, there are malts (and actual corn) that can also fool you.
Dave

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Offline gman23

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Re: diacetyl in lagers
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2016, 06:35:38 PM »
Thanks dudes. Definitely not getting the artificial butter thing. After the diacetyl rest, I detected no diacetyl in the hydrometer sample. I have brewed a couple of batches with S04 that had diacetyl but that was before I was ramping the temperature up toward the end of fermentation.

Overall, I just didn't brew a very good beer which is sad  :(
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 06:37:21 PM by goschman »
On Tap/Bottled: Hopfenbier, Kurbis Marzen, Red Rye, Vienna Lager,      

Fermenting: Imperial Porter
Up Next: Maibock, Braunbier

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: diacetyl in lagers
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2016, 06:38:37 PM »
Thanks dudes. Definitely not getting the artificial butter thing. After the diacetyl rest, I detected no diacetyl in the hydrometer sample.

thats good. keep in mind that while not detected initially, from what Ive read there can be precursors for it becoming noticeable at some point after fermentation...IIRC when O2 interacts with the beer.

also, an infection can do the same IIRC.

butterscotch certainly is a flavor that can come from the malts used.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline gman23

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Re: diacetyl in lagers
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2016, 06:46:44 PM »
Thanks dudes. Definitely not getting the artificial butter thing. After the diacetyl rest, I detected no diacetyl in the hydrometer sample.

thats good. keep in mind that while not detected initially, from what Ive read there can be precursors for it becoming noticeable at some point after fermentation...IIRC when O2 interacts with the beer.

also, an infection can do the same IIRC.

butterscotch certainly is a flavor that can come from the malts used.

Good to know. I will just have to see how it develops with some age and hopefully it improves a bit. I have never brewed a beer similar to this one.

I probably should not complicate matters but I also recall almost a fruity, banana type thing going on. I used palisade hops which I have never gotten that character from. It certainly has an interesting combination of flavors. The yeast was W34/70, accelerated lager schedule starting at 52F. Sounds like I need to do some sampling tonight...
On Tap/Bottled: Hopfenbier, Kurbis Marzen, Red Rye, Vienna Lager,      

Fermenting: Imperial Porter
Up Next: Maibock, Braunbier

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: diacetyl in lagers
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2016, 06:47:06 PM »
keep in mind that while not detected initially, from what Ive read there can be precursors for it becoming noticeable at some point after fermentation...IIRC when O2 interacts with the beer.

I've definitely seen that effect once or twice.  Not every time but sometimes.  No diacetyl at bottling, then big diacetyl for a couple weeks, then another week or two later it's gone again permanently.  Must be the yeast interacting with oxygen like you say.  (I bottle condition; I do not keg, so I don't know if keggers get the same exact effect.)
Dave

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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: diacetyl in lagers
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2016, 06:48:45 PM »
I probably should not complicate matters but I also recall almost a fruity, banana type thing going on.

This is sounding more and more like a stale extract beer to me.  Did you use any extract at all in this beer?  If so, wink-wink, yeah, it is very likely the dreaded "extract twang".  If not, then nevermind!
Dave

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Offline gman23

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Re: diacetyl in lagers
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2016, 06:50:53 PM »
I probably should not complicate matters but I also recall almost a fruity, banana type thing going on.

This is sounding more and more like a stale extract beer to me.  Did you use any extract at all in this beer?  If so, wink-wink, yeah, it is very likely the dreaded "extract twang".  If not, then nevermind!

100% Red X malt
On Tap/Bottled: Hopfenbier, Kurbis Marzen, Red Rye, Vienna Lager,      

Fermenting: Imperial Porter
Up Next: Maibock, Braunbier

Offline erockrph

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Re: diacetyl in lagers
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2016, 06:55:30 PM »
If you want practice tasting diacetyl in a lager, RedHook Pilsner is the biggest D-bomb I've ever had. I get it in most of their beers, but the Pilsner is the worst offender of them all.
Eric B.

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Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: diacetyl in lagers
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2016, 06:57:40 PM »
http://www.professorbeer.com/articles/diacetyl.html


if interested in reading, this explains in simple terms what I likely did a poor job of in my previous post.

also tells you how to do a proper test for D in finished product.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: diacetyl in lagers
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2016, 07:27:28 PM »
100% Red X malt

Oh.  Guess I need to learn to read!  Yeah, that's probably it then.  Just a very caramelly malt I guess (I haven't used it but I can guess).
Dave

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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: diacetyl in lagers
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2016, 07:30:22 PM »
http://www.professorbeer.com/articles/diacetyl.html


if interested in reading, this explains in simple terms what I likely did a poor job of in my previous post.

also tells you how to do a proper test for D in finished product.



Good article. Thanks for posting.
Jon H.

Offline tommymorris

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Re: diacetyl in lagers
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2016, 08:11:11 PM »
There is a fix for diacetyl. You can make a starter 10% the size of your batch and pitch it into your current beer. Let that ferment out and the new yeast will absorb the diacetyl.

Of course, this will through off your hops a bit but if the beer is undrinkable it's an option.