Author Topic: Lager starters  (Read 3012 times)

RPIScotty

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2016, 02:24:08 PM »

I wonder if starter fermentation temp could be a factor? Jim is using the method with success, but is temp controlling his starter.

It makes sense that if the starter is a massive fruit bomb that pitching the entire thing might affect the final beer.
The yeast will do what it does in different environments. A 1L starter into 5g shouldn't make a difference if it is pitched into 48F wort. However, I wonder if the starter fermented at room temp will be shocked if it is pitched into cold wort like that.
I would say that I agree with Paul that under pitching, even a high krausen starter, is the cause of his estery lager. A stir plate or stepped up starter is better, in my opinion. But we do what we want, so if you like your end product with under pitching, brew on!

The probably is translating the paper characteristics to the fermentor.

On paper, and in reality under the IDEAL (much emphasis added) circumstances, the growth of the starter once it hits the wort will be explosive in short order.

In reality, everyone's process and equipment is so varied that proposing that the SNS method would work for everyone is impossible. Lagers, especially the paler ones, seem to be less forgiving than ales.

The important thing is the dialogue between everyone. It's a good thing to know what everyone is doing and what works for everyone. It makes for a great learning environment.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2016, 02:28:51 PM »
Yes to shock. That is a "tied for first place" reason for me running my lager starters at temp. #1 is to limit off esters and #1 is to not shock the yeast that I worked so hard to get to log phase by dumping them into a 20º temp drop.

Offline Phil_M

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2016, 02:32:29 PM »
My thought had more to do with esters being created in the warm starter, but shocking the yeast is also an interesting thought.

But I've never brewed a lager, so take that for what it's worth.
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2016, 02:39:31 PM »
A warm L lager starter may throw some off esters. Wether they would be detectable after diluted in 5-6 gallons? Maybe.

The 20° drop will cause stress. Wether the stress would always cause a detectable difference in the end, who knows. Might depend on the beer. But I have the temp controlled chest, so why not use it and prevent the possible problem?

Offline beersk

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2016, 02:42:28 PM »
Since I usually step my starters up, cold crash and decant, the yeast is already cold going into the cold wort. I haven't tried doing a starter at fermentation temp though for lagers. I wonder if that would make any appreciable difference, even with crashing and decanting. Denny says no, but ... I haven't tried it, so perhaps it is worth a try, for kicks.

Paul, do you usually stir plate your lager starters at room temp or fermentation temp?

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2016, 02:45:29 PM »
My take would be that if you are decanting then temp doesn't matter.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2016, 02:53:49 PM »
I do lager starters @ room temp, then crash and decant. I could definitely see how doing a SNS starter at room temp could produce esters and cause some temp shock which could produce its own esters. Depending on the strain it could be noticeable.
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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2016, 04:35:41 PM »
I wonder if starter fermentation temp could be a factor? Jim is using the method with success, but is temp controlling his starter.

It makes sense that if the starter is a massive fruit bomb that pitching the entire thing might affect the final beer.

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Offline blatz

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2016, 04:40:40 PM »
Paul, do you usually stir plate your lager starters at room temp or fermentation temp?

room temp on the plate, crash and decant.  usually step at least once.

I pitch right after decanting, so my hope is that the yeast is actually rising in temp rather than lowering.
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Offline beersk

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2016, 07:06:30 PM »
Paul, do you usually stir plate your lager starters at room temp or fermentation temp?

room temp on the plate, crash and decant.  usually step at least once.

I pitch right after decanting, so my hope is that the yeast is actually rising in temp rather than lowering.
Indeed. I decant right before pitching as well.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2016, 07:21:50 PM »
still doing about 3qt on stir plate at room temp, crash and then decant right before pitching.

if i were to pitch SNS for lager...I likely would do the starter cooler and then pitch high krausen vs warm....I'm just not there yet in having reason to stop doing what Ive been having good results with. I'm using slurry most the time so only doing lager starters with new yeast after 6+ slurry repitch anyway.
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Offline beersk

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2016, 09:42:55 PM »
I likely would do the starter cooler and then pitch high krausen vs warm....I'm just not there yet in having reason to stop doing what Ive been having good results with. I'm using slurry most the time so only doing lager starters with new yeast after 6+ slurry repitch anyway.
Very much the same for me. I try to pitch fairly fresh slurry (with in a couple weeks of harvesting) if I can help it.

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2016, 09:55:52 PM »

I wonder if starter fermentation temp could be a factor? Jim is using the method with success, but is temp controlling his starter.

It makes sense that if the starter is a massive fruit bomb that pitching the entire thing might affect the final beer.
The yeast will do what it does in different environments. A 1L starter into 5g shouldn't make a difference if it is pitched into 48F wort. However, I wonder if the starter fermented at room temp will be shocked if it is pitched into cold wort like that.
I would say that I agree with Paul that under pitching, even a high krausen starter, is the cause of his estery lager. A stir plate or stepped up starter is better, in my opinion. But we do what we want, so if you like your end product with under pitching, brew on!

The probably is translating the paper characteristics to the fermentor.

On paper, and in reality under the IDEAL (much emphasis added) circumstances, the growth of the starter once it hits the wort will be explosive in short order.

Possibly for ales, but does this also apply to lager yeast being pitched at a much colder 48F?  I know Mark was reporting that lagers don't need to be fermented any cooler than 55F as well, which I feel is quite warm. But I have yet to try it at that temp so I cannot make any claims.