Author Topic: Lager starters  (Read 3080 times)

RPIScotty

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2016, 12:28:14 AM »
Can't argue with tangible experience.

I wonder if I should try it on a small batch lager....


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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2016, 12:31:17 AM »
For lagers I use 1L oxygenated starter with no stirplate, sat in my fermentation chest at lager fermentation temp, and pitch the whole thing at 12 hrs. Same as ales, but cooler and 4 hrs longer wait.

Edit: I am not trying to get anyone else to do it. I'm fine with being the only home brewer who does it. I will say that if you listen close to Dan Gordon interviews, you find that Gordon Biersch is made with what would be considered an under pitch of "yeast in exponential growth phase". Meaning, they do it too. I've never tried their beers though, so maybe they suck.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 12:37:10 AM by klickitat jim »

Offline narcout

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2016, 12:41:40 AM »
For lagers I use 1L oxygenated starter with no stirplate, sat in my fermentation chest at lager fermentation temp, and pitch the whole thing at 12 hrs. Same as ales, but cooler and 4 hrs longer wait.

I thought you said in the "Rube Goldberg" thread that you were pitching two 1L starters?
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RPIScotty

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2016, 01:01:07 AM »

For lagers I use 1L oxygenated starter with no stirplate, sat in my fermentation chest at lager fermentation temp, and pitch the whole thing at 12 hrs. Same as ales, but cooler and 4 hrs longer wait.

Edit: I am not trying to get anyone else to do it. I'm fine with being the only home brewer who does it. I will say that if you listen close to Dan Gordon interviews, you find that Gordon Biersch is made with what would be considered an under pitch of "yeast in exponential growth phase". Meaning, they do it too. I've never tried their beers though, so maybe they suck.

I'm forgot you were doing 1LO2HK for lagers Jim.


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Offline martinj

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2016, 01:44:17 AM »

I agree, pitching at high krausen has it's benefits. However, an underpitch is an underpitch, high krausen or not.


The assumption being that pitching 250B or so cells at high krausen constitutes underpitching.

If the yeast mass doubles it's cell count just shy of 90 minutes in the wort then your not really underpitching. It's all relative.


Like many have said the mechanics behind the SNS starter can be abstract and offer a different paradigm to the one proposed by the now ubiquitous yeast starter calculators.

Like Denny has said many times, "What works for you may not work for other homebrewers."

It's all good. It's all beer. Cheers man.


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No argument here, my thought is, not knowing for sure what might happen after a high krausen pitch, my goal is to make sure I pitch an adequate number of cells to begin with. That way, the jump start I get by pitching all those cells at high krausen is just icing on the cake.

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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2016, 02:01:26 AM »
For lagers I use 1L oxygenated starter with no stirplate, sat in my fermentation chest at lager fermentation temp, and pitch the whole thing at 12 hrs. Same as ales, but cooler and 4 hrs longer wait.

I thought you said in the "Rube Goldberg" thread that you were pitching two 1L starters?
I did. That was then. Now I do 1.

I also hit 50% ADF within 4 days, so I'm not seeing a lag issue.

RPIScotty

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2016, 02:14:45 AM »

For lagers I use 1L oxygenated starter with no stirplate, sat in my fermentation chest at lager fermentation temp, and pitch the whole thing at 12 hrs. Same as ales, but cooler and 4 hrs longer wait.

I thought you said in the "Rube Goldberg" thread that you were pitching two 1L starters?
I did. That was then. Now I do 1.

I also hit 50% ADF within 4 days, so I'm not seeing a lag issue.

So your getting a clean lager fermentation profile with 1L?

That is at least anecdotal confirmation of Mark's insistence that cell counts needn't be different for ales and lagers using the variations on the method.


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Offline jeffy

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2016, 02:31:43 AM »
For lagers I use 1L oxygenated starter with no stirplate, sat in my fermentation chest at lager fermentation temp, and pitch the whole thing at 12 hrs. Same as ales, but cooler and 4 hrs longer wait.

Edit: I am not trying to get anyone else to do it. I'm fine with being the only home brewer who does it. I will say that if you listen close to Dan Gordon interviews, you find that Gordon Biersch is made with what would be considered an under pitch of "yeast in exponential growth phase". Meaning, they do it too. I've never tried their beers though, so maybe they suck.
They don't.
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Offline AmandaK

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2016, 02:51:58 AM »
Can't argue with tangible experience.

I wonder if I should try it on a small batch lager....


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I do 2.5g batches and did a 1L starter, shaken not stirred, in a 5L flasks for 3 different lagers. All of them under attenuated from my normal experience and had more than perceptable esters. I pitched at high krausen, I think I even have a picture of it somewhere.

I tried to like it. I don't. No big deal though, there are plenty of ways to skin a cat.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2016, 03:20:14 AM »
Can't argue with tangible experience.

I wonder if I should try it on a small batch lager....


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I do 2.5g batches and did a 1L starter, shaken not stirred, in a 5L flasks for 3 different lagers. All of them under attenuated from my normal experience and had more than perceptable esters. I pitched at high krausen, I think I even have a picture of it somewhere.

I tried to like it. I don't. No big deal though, there are plenty of ways to skin a cat.
Interesting. I've only done SNS once for a lager, but I was quite happy with the results. I did a 1.25 qt starter for a 3 gallon batch, so a similar rate to you, and otherwise followed my normal lager routine. The batch turned out great, and I'm committed to using SNS in the future.

I did miss high krausen by a few hours. Not sure if that made a difference, but the beer turned out crisp and clean. Yeast was WY2278, FWIW.
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Offline Phil_M

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2016, 11:49:46 AM »
I wonder if starter fermentation temp could be a factor? Jim is using the method with success, but is temp controlling his starter.

It makes sense that if the starter is a massive fruit bomb that pitching the entire thing might affect the final beer.
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Offline blatz

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2016, 11:56:14 AM »

I wonder if starter fermentation temp could be a factor? Jim is using the method with success, but is temp controlling his starter.

It makes sense that if the starter is a massive fruit bomb that pitching the entire thing might affect the final beer.

I also made the starter with wort from the actual batch at 50df, aerated with pure o2 and kept it in my fermentation fridge until it appeared to hit HK.
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RPIScotty

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Lager starters
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2016, 12:09:11 PM »
I wonder if starter fermentation temp could be a factor? Jim is using the method with success, but is temp controlling his starter.

It makes sense that if the starter is a massive fruit bomb that pitching the entire thing might affect the final beer.

Why would the starter be a fruit bomb?

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« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 12:15:39 PM by RPIScotty »

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2016, 02:02:41 PM »

I wonder if starter fermentation temp could be a factor? Jim is using the method with success, but is temp controlling his starter.

It makes sense that if the starter is a massive fruit bomb that pitching the entire thing might affect the final beer.

I also made the starter with wort from the actual batch at 50df, aerated with pure o2 and kept it in my fermentation fridge until it appeared to hit HK.
Yes, if thats an option its not a bad idea. I dont just use any old DME, I use Breiss extra light pilsner. I wouldn't expect a liter of, for example, stale amber LME extract starter wort and then be surprised that it effected the flavor and color of your helles.

Offline beersk

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Re: Lager starters
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2016, 02:15:56 PM »
I wonder if starter fermentation temp could be a factor? Jim is using the method with success, but is temp controlling his starter.

It makes sense that if the starter is a massive fruit bomb that pitching the entire thing might affect the final beer.
The yeast will do what it does in different environments. A 1L starter into 5g shouldn't make a difference if it is pitched into 48F wort. However, I wonder if the starter fermented at room temp will be shocked if it is pitched into cold wort like that.
I would say that I agree with Paul that under pitching, even a high krausen starter, is the cause of his estery lager. A stir plate or stepped up starter is better, in my opinion. But we do what we want, so if you like your end product with under pitching, brew on!