Author Topic: hop stand exbeeriment  (Read 1491 times)

Offline homoeccentricus

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hop stand exbeeriment
« on: February 01, 2016, 03:39:44 PM »
http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/01/the-hop-stand-hot-vs-chilled-wort-exbeeriment-results/

I'm going to brew an IPA next weekend. So should I cool the wort to 80C to whirlpool or is this a waste of effort?
Frank P.

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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2016, 03:59:33 PM »
A lot of approaches to doing this stuff. I still prefer the cooler method because I like to control the IBUs accurately in the boil and use the cooler steep (which produces little to no noticeable bitterness) for flavor and aroma. A flameout steep extracts much more bitterness and must be accounted for. It's not about right or wrong for me, just preference in being able to control IBUs. Having done both, I still like the flavor and aroma a bit better at 170F. Try both and see what you think.
Jon H.

Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2016, 04:24:36 PM »
A lot of approaches to doing this stuff. I still prefer the cooler method because I like to control the IBUs accurately in the boil and use the cooler steep (which produces little to no noticeable bitterness) for flavor and aroma. A flameout steep extracts much more bitterness and must be accounted for. It's not about right or wrong for me, just preference in being able to control IBUs. Having done both, I still like the flavor and aroma a bit better at 170F. Try both and see what you think.

Did you read the article? ;)
Frank P.

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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2016, 04:28:36 PM »
A lot of approaches to doing this stuff. I still prefer the cooler method because I like to control the IBUs accurately in the boil and use the cooler steep (which produces little to no noticeable bitterness) for flavor and aroma. A flameout steep extracts much more bitterness and must be accounted for. It's not about right or wrong for me, just preference in being able to control IBUs. Having done both, I still like the flavor and aroma a bit better at 170F. Try both and see what you think.

Did you read the article? ;)


I did.  I also have my own thoughts from doing it many times, as referenced in my post. The xbmts are cool and helpful but not meant to be taken as the final word on something.  ;)
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Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2016, 04:34:43 PM »
Yes, well, I'm just looking for an excuse to not having to chill before the whirlpool.
Frank P.

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Offline denny

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2016, 04:36:19 PM »
We'll be announcing the results of the Experimental Brewing experiment about this on 2/17.  We'll have multiple testers and a much larger pool of tasters, so I'll be curious to see how they experimental results compare.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2016, 04:39:47 PM »
Yes, well, I'm just looking for an excuse to not having to chill before the whirlpool.

If you don't want to chill, don't. You'll make good beer. But you'll extract more bitterness which you'll need to account for in terms of bitterness addition in boil.
Jon H.

Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2016, 04:43:27 PM »
We'll be announcing the results of the Experimental Brewing experiment about this on 2/17.  We'll have multiple testers and a much larger pool of tasters, so I'll be curious to see how they experimental results compare.

Could you pm the results to me before the weekend? I'm brewing on Sunday ;)
Frank P.

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Offline goschman

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2016, 04:59:19 PM »
Chilling to 170F only takes a couple minutes at most right? If that's the case, I don't see it being that much easier to do the non-chill method however I leave my chiller in the kettle with lid off during hopstands.
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Offline kramerog

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2016, 05:00:36 PM »
This experiment is interesting, but is fairly limited because it is hard to investigate the hop stand space with two data points.  For example, I tend to do much longer hop stands.  Also, the sample size for  the test was small.  Specifically, there were only 12 testers so 50% of the testers identifying the odd beer out did not reach statistical significance, but if the 50% of 20 testers did so the results would be statistically significant (IIRC). 

Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2016, 05:18:50 PM »
This experiment is interesting, but is fairly limited because it is hard to investigate the hop stand space with two data points.  For example, I tend to do much longer hop stands.  Also, the sample size for  the test was small.  Specifically, there were only 12 testers so 50% of the testers identifying the odd beer out did not reach statistical significance, but if the 50% of 20 testers did so the results would be statistically significant (IIRC).

No, "The data for this xBmt was gathered at a recent Strand Brewers Club monthly meeting in Torrance, CA where 25 awesome brewers, judges, and craft beer enthusiasts participated in the evaluation." And only 6 of them selected correctly.
Frank P.

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Offline denny

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2016, 05:23:47 PM »
As great and useful as Marshall's exbeeriments are, they "suffer" from only having one person brew the beers.  Our EB experiments, in spite of some shortcomings of their own, have multiple brewers and each brewer has multiple tasters.  By looking at the results from both Marshall's and ours, there are more data points which should lead to increased validity.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2016, 05:24:57 PM »
Chilling to 170F only takes a couple minutes at most right? If that's the case, I don't see it being that much easier to do the non-chill method however I leave my chiller in the kettle with lid off during hopstands.


Yeah, takes me 2 or 3 minutes. Also, I agree with kramerog that the length of the stand and also the IBUs extracted from the flameout hopstand weren't addressed. It's not a one size fits all technique. Length of time  can create different results as can high temp where bitterness is extracted. That's where experimenting at home really helps.
Jon H.

Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2016, 05:38:36 PM »
and also the IBUs extracted from the flameout hopstand weren't addressed. It's not a one size fits all technique.
Difference in bitterness was "not perceived".
Frank P.

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BurghBeezer

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2016, 06:12:39 PM »
There are so many variables, that in the end you really have to try things for yourself and decide what makes the beer you are most satisfied with.

25 minutes at 200F+ and 25 minutes at 170F is not equal in extraction of hop oils.  And then it's variety dependent on whether there is a significant flavor/aroma contribution from the oils that volatilize at or below those temperatues.  In this case it the two varieties used have myrcene as the major component and it can easily survive these temperatures.  The hop processing themselves can be very important; was the hop ever heated above that temperature during drying or pelletizing which could eliminate the compounds these tests could reveal.  Was the water profile light on minerals or heavily dosed?

That being said, I do really appreciate these tests as they can help me decide what to experiment with myself without needing to try hundreds of times.  I do not get to brew enough to do a myriad of tests, so it is nice to see new methods and the discussions to follow to help me decide what I want to try.  I also am guilty of almost always changing 2 or more things at a time so that my own data is experimentally flawed.

Like Denny said it also helps when you have more experimenters try the same thing and there is more data.