Author Topic: hop stand exbeeriment  (Read 2297 times)

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2016, 06:32:40 PM »
and also the IBUs extracted from the flameout hopstand weren't addressed. It's not a one size fits all technique.
Difference in bitterness was "not perceived".


I see where Marshall says that he "did multiple side by side comparisons, attempted to isolate only the aromatic differences". Look, I'm not trying to sell you on what I do, but you did ask for input. This is a technique with a lot of variables (as Marshall says in the write up) and one trial isn't likely to make a definitive conclusion either way.
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2016, 06:53:09 PM »
Experimental Brewing Whirlpool experiment will be my next brew day in about 3 weeks. (Yes, Cpt Obvious, I will be better late than never) also making my Challenge beer that day

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2016, 07:13:01 PM »
Stan Hieronymus stated at Hop School, you get differences depending on whirlpool temperature. He acknowledged the flame out and 170 additions being popular. He recommended that homebrewers should try a stand at 185F, as some pros have found that to accentuate a flavor/aroma compound - which I forget which one that is and if he recommended certain hops for that one.
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Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2016, 07:29:27 PM »
Maybe youse are all wrong ;)
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Offline erockrph

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2016, 02:45:46 AM »
My thoughts:

A) Can we please stop referring to flash points when it comes to hop oils? That term refers to the flammability of the pure substance, and has little bearing on the evaporation rate when dissolved in a solution.

B) I don't think this is a great test when it comes to bitterness because 1) the scheduled boil hops were used as planned and 2) it is an IPA and therefore would already have a decent amount of IBU's by the time you get to your whirlpool additions. A better test would be something with low IBU's in the boil. Better yet, no boil hops and followed up with lab analyses of measured IBU to compare perceived bitterness vs measured IBU's.

C) This is a decent data point regarding whirlpool additions at various temperatures. But I think this is something that needs a lot of data points at various time/temp/hopping rates to see if we can fit a trend. Looking forward to the IGORs' results.

As always, thanks to the Brulosophy folks for the time and effort spent on this.
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BurghBeezer

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2016, 04:36:18 AM »
My thoughts:

A) Can we please stop referring to flash points when it comes to hop oils? That term refers to the flammability of the pure substance, and has little bearing on the evaporation rate when dissolved in a solution.

Your post was the only one that mentioned flash points in this thread as far as I can see  ;)

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2016, 12:50:02 PM »
My thoughts:

A) Can we please stop referring to flash points when it comes to hop oils? That term refers to the flammability of the pure substance, and has little bearing on the evaporation rate when dissolved in a solution.

B) I don't think this is a great test when it comes to bitterness because 1) the scheduled boil hops were used as planned and 2) it is an IPA and therefore would already have a decent amount of IBU's by the time you get to your whirlpool additions. A better test would be something with low IBU's in the boil. Better yet, no boil hops and followed up with lab analyses of measured IBU to compare perceived bitterness vs measured IBU's.

C) This is a decent data point regarding whirlpool additions at various temperatures. But I think this is something that needs a lot of data points at various time/temp/hopping rates to see if we can fit a trend. Looking forward to the IGORs' results.

As always, thanks to the Brulosophy folks for the time and effort spent on this.


All good points. All things equal, no way bitterness is equal between the two steep temps. There are beers like Kiwanda Cream Ale that get all their bitterness from a big flameout addition.
Jon H.

Offline charles1968

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2016, 07:06:13 PM »
It's a shame there's no information about the IBU level of each beer or type or quantity of hops used, so it's impossible to say with any confidence whether the two beers should have had a perceptible difference in bitterness. I've read somewhere that IBU differences of less than 6 are not perceptible, but it would be nice to see that tested.

As for aroma, I'm not surprised. Both beers were fresh and very hoppy. Both had a flameout steep and no dry hops. I'd expect similar beers. At least it shows that both methods work, until more data comes in.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 07:08:03 PM by charles1968 »

Offline erockrph

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2016, 07:35:35 PM »
My thoughts:

A) Can we please stop referring to flash points when it comes to hop oils? That term refers to the flammability of the pure substance, and has little bearing on the evaporation rate when dissolved in a solution.

Your post was the only one that mentioned flash points in this thread as far as I can see  ;)
From the original article:

Quote
Theoretically, reducing wort temp prior to adding hops ought to lead to more hop character since many hop oils have flashpoints lower than boiling. This reasoning makes sense to me and is the primary reason my standard practice when brewing IPA is to chill the wort to 170°F/77°C before adding the hops for a 20-30 minute soak.

I hear flash points mentioned quite often in discussions about what temperature to perform hop stands at, why you need to chill rapidly, what temp to dry hop at, etc. While I don't doubt that many hop oils will volatilize extensively at temps below boiling and possibly even close to room temps, the use of the flash point as some magical point above which all of the oil in question will "flash off" out of the wort is just plain wrong.

By comparison, the flash point of ethanol is 63F. I ferment my ales warmer than that, but they still have plenty of ethanol in them when I get around to drinking them.
Eric B.

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Offline BrewingRover

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2016, 08:41:06 PM »
I've been poking around an article database to see if there have been any papers on this, but the best I found was a poster
http://digitalcommons.northgeorgia.edu/ngresearchconf/2014/Poster/14/

It looks like they presented at the Master Brewers Association, but that's restricted to members. I'd be curious to see what they have to say

On a related note, the archives of the Journal of the Institute of Brewing are freely available. The latest year is subscribers only
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/journal/10.1002/%28ISSN%292050-0416
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Offline Al Hounos

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Re: hop stand exbeeriment
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2016, 07:31:36 AM »
The Brulosophy exbeeriments are always food for thought and have changed the way I look at brewing, but as Marshall himself has said, they're not intended to be the last word. You still need to test the results on your own system and your own palate.

Personally, I have tried both flameout and 170F hopstands and couldn't tell any difference either. However, I have done beers with a large flameout hopstand that I didn't use any boil hops at all. (And they turned out well.) I wouldn't try that with the 170F hopstand.

Controlled experiment aside, my guess is that with the amount of hops most of us are putting in the hopstand, and the amount of dry hops we use in practice, it really doesn't matter which way you do it.

I am looking forward to Denny's experiment!