Membership questions? Log in issues? Email info@brewersassociation.org

Author Topic: Racking before end of fermentation  (Read 6046 times)

Offline homoeccentricus

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2009
  • A twerp from Antwerp
Re: Racking before end of fermentation
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2016, 06:38:59 am »
The counterarguments are plain and simple: "we have no stalled fermentation, we have no diacetyl, we have no acetaldehyde."
Then congratulate them and move on?

The problem is not so much that they do this, I couldn't care less. The problem is that they recommend the method to other people, often newbies, who get confused by contradicting advice.
Frank P.

Staggering on the shoulders of giant dwarfs.

Offline Joe Sr.

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4467
  • Chicago - NORTH SIDE
Re: Racking before end of fermentation
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2016, 07:32:31 am »
Tell your friends to split a batch, rack one before it's done and leave the other until it finishes.

Set up some blind tasters and see what you think.

If something is working for people, they're not generally open to change.  Which makes sense.  However, if there's an easier or (arguably) better way of doing things, it's worth checking out for yourself.

FWIW, I made a ton of beer with always racking to a secondary.  I never had any problems that I was aware of at the time.  If done carefully it shouldn't cause problems.  But not everyone has the same level of care.
It's all in the reflexes. - Jack Burton

Offline homoeccentricus

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2009
  • A twerp from Antwerp
Re: Racking before end of fermentation
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2016, 08:18:12 am »
It was somewhat tested but unfortunately not to minimum standards of objectivity that I would accept. So it's quite hopeless ;)
Frank P.

Staggering on the shoulders of giant dwarfs.

Offline klickitat jim

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8604
Re: Racking before end of fermentation
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2016, 10:27:03 am »
It was somewhat tested but unfortunately not to minimum standards of objectivity that I would accept. So it's quite hopeless ;)
There seems to be a percentage of people who, for whatever reason, cling to things they were taught, refuse to acknowledge any other way, attack people who don't do it their way, and actively seek to convert others to their way.

Offline homoeccentricus

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2009
  • A twerp from Antwerp
Re: Racking before end of fermentation
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2016, 02:15:41 am »
I am now starting to formulate a hypothesis that when those people do not rack to secondary, their final beer simply is more yeasty: in another experiment a few people did a blind test with beers that were either racked during primary, or not racked, and the racked beers were perceived as cleaner, more fruity and less sulphury. Wouldn't that be the expected perception of a more yeasty beer? So nothing to do with autolysis? And wouldn't that imply that their clearing and bottling process is suboptimal?
Frank P.

Staggering on the shoulders of giant dwarfs.

Offline majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11326
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
Re: Racking before end of fermentation
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2016, 06:52:33 am »
It would seem to me that they are not clearing the beer in the primary.

I should point out that I use a "secondary" vessel or bright tank for every beer I brew, even 10 gallon batches. That secondary vessel just is either a `15.5 gallon sanky keg or two corny kegs. The difference is these secondary vessels are purged of o2. You can do the same thing with a carboy.

One would think that racking a beer near the end of fermentation that there would still be enough active yeast in solution to clean up the beer and finish whatever fermentation and clean up any oxygen that was brought over as well. And with low floccing yeasts that really should be the case. Only on high floccing yeasts like English strains where the yeast needs to be roused (in some cases) to fully attenuate should racking early actually cause a problem. However, empirical evidence has shown me that racking a beer, for some reason, often causes the yeast to drop out of suspension and I have no idea why this is. And we have all trouble shot questions on this forum about underattenuation that seemed to result from racking early.

IMO it is not a good idea to ever rack before fermentation is finished, but if you save the yeast you could repitch if you don't reach your FG.

Offline Joe Sr.

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4467
  • Chicago - NORTH SIDE
Re: Racking before end of fermentation
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2016, 09:04:47 am »
I'm not sure what the flavor of autolysis would be, but yeasty tasting beer tells me it hasn't cleared enough.

The only time my beer tastes yeasty is if it hasn't sufficiently cleared.  Once clear, it tastes different (not yeasty).

I would suspect that the yeasty tasting beers are being packaged too soon, probably because someone is afraid that they'll get autolysis if they wait longer for the beer to clear.  Or else they're not cold crashing before packaging.
It's all in the reflexes. - Jack Burton

Offline HoosierBrew

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 13031
  • Indianapolis,IN
Re: Racking before end of fermentation
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2016, 09:09:53 am »
It would seem to me that they are not clearing the beer in the primary.

I should point out that I use a "secondary" vessel or bright tank for every beer I brew, even 10 gallon batches. That secondary vessel just is either a `15.5 gallon sanky keg or two corny kegs. The difference is these secondary vessels are purged of o2. You can do the same thing with a carboy.

One would think that racking a beer near the end of fermentation that there would still be enough active yeast in solution to clean up the beer and finish whatever fermentation and clean up any oxygen that was brought over as well. And with low floccing yeasts that really should be the case. Only on high floccing yeasts like English strains where the yeast needs to be roused (in some cases) to fully attenuate should racking early actually cause a problem. However, empirical evidence has shown me that racking a beer, for some reason, often causes the yeast to drop out of suspension and I have no idea why this is. And we have all trouble shot questions on this forum about underattenuation that seemed to result from racking early.

IMO it is not a good idea to ever rack before fermentation is finished, but if you save the yeast you could repitch if you don't reach your FG.


I agree with all of this.
Jon H.

Offline dilluh98

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 575
Re: Racking before end of fermentation
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2016, 05:36:08 pm »
I'm not sure what the flavor of autolysis would be, but yeasty tasting beer tells me it hasn't cleared enough.

The only time my beer tastes yeasty is if it hasn't sufficiently cleared.  Once clear, it tastes different (not yeasty).

I would suspect that the yeasty tasting beers are being packaged too soon, probably because someone is afraid that they'll get autolysis if they wait longer for the beer to clear.  Or else they're not cold crashing before packaging.

Or if they bottle, let the bottles sit in the fridge for a minimum of a week before consuming. I've found this clears the beer exceptionally well.

I've cold crashed and then bottled. I've cold crashed, bottled with added extra yeast at bottling. I've foregone cold crashing and then bottled without adding bottling yeast. In all cases, if the bottles are left in the fridge for a week, the results are essentially the same: clear beer that does not taste yeasty in the slightest.

Offline ynotbrusum

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4882
Re: Racking before end of fermentation
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2016, 07:21:46 pm »
Oddly, I had brewed a Tripel for a 60 gallon wine barrel project at our club this past month and it pained me to rack it off at 1.012, when I knew it would likely finish a few points lower, if given time, but we had agreed on a date for the barrel fill and I had fully expected the beer to finish by a few days earlier - just goes to show you that the yeast tell you when they are done!  There were enough really dry batches blended with it that even if it doesn't finish further, the batch will be fine.  Years ago, I would have racked it to secondary and waited to take a hydrometer reading a week or so after that - and probably lamented that it had not finished!
Hodge Garage Brewing: "Brew with a glad heart!"

Offline mpietropaoli

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
Re: Racking before end of fermentation
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2016, 06:56:47 am »
I was for a long time in the primary-to-packaging, autolysis risk is overblown camp, but then I read this by Pete Wolf.  Short answer: the yeast in the 'cake' isn't really doing the work anyway, its the yeast thats suspended in the wort...and autolysis is a risk, even on a homebrew scale.  Plus the amount of undesirable stuff in the cake, racking may make more sense than we think.  Racking off of or dropping sediment from a conical shouldn't slow down the fermentation all that much if at all according to him. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/beer/comments/2hj15k/beer_and_brewing_science_ama_professional_brewing/ 

What we need is a Picobrewer to do a side-by-side, like with Hochkurz mashing  ;D
Bubblin': helles
Flowin': IIPA, Doppelbock, Flanders
Sittin': More Flanders, Braison,
Thinkin': wit, more helles

Offline beersk

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 3721
  • In the night!
Re: Racking before end of fermentation
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2016, 07:19:13 am »
The counterarguments are plain and simple: "we have no stalled fermentation, we have no diacetyl, we have no acetaldehyde."
Then congratulate them and move on?

The problem is not so much that they do this, I couldn't care less. The problem is that they recommend the method to other people, often newbies, who get confused by contradicting advice.
And this is why you are there to tell them they are wrong. You must do this over and over. They need to stop spreading lies.
I've tasted autolysis a few times. One particular beer I had was where my friend kept his beer in the primary for 6 months, in a garage during the summer. It was very meaty tasting. No bueno. Naturally, he thought it was good and couldn't tell that it wasn't the way it was supposed to be.
Jesse