[mpietropaoli]

Right I mean, its definitely not something I am trying to troubleshoot, like "I am having this issue so I need to fix it".  Other than my non-purge screwup, I haven't necessarily noticed CARDBOARD oxidation flavors, but again, my understanding it that oxidation can rear its head in a number of ways.  I just really think that the beers coming out of this area are totally original, and achieving the flavor (and keeping it) is a complex task. 

So this is really just me trying to improve my process to make the best beer possible (that will last as long as possible) . 

[denny]

Right I mean, its definitely not something I am trying to troubleshoot, like "I am having this issue so I need to fix it".  Other than my non-purge screwup, I haven't necessarily noticed CARDBOARD oxidation flavors, but again, my understanding it that oxidation can rear its head in a number of ways.  I just really think that the beers coming out of this area are totally original, and achieving the flavor (and keeping it) is a complex task. 

So this is really just me trying to improve my process to make the best beer possible (that will last as long as possible) .

As you probably know, my philosophy is pretty much the opposite...it isn't a problem until it's a problem!

[ynotbrusum]

I agree with Denny on this one, though my data points for dry hopped beers are less than 30.  I don't make a ton of dry hopped beers and I don't get oxidation issues when I do, but I am also not storing dry hopped beers for many months.  So, I can see those who want to establish a best practices approach to packaging so as to maximize shelf life...but you can also brew smaller batches more frequently to achieve a fresher result!

[narvin]

The only time I had oxidation from dry hops, I think the hops were already bad.  I added some whole cone centennial in a sack to the keg and a day later it had changed to a very nasty, papery off flavor.

Now I stick to pellets and throw them in loose before crash cooling.  Fermentation is done but there is still yeast in suspension, so I really doubt that oxygen introduced is going to do much.

[pinnah]

Wow, Vermont IPA? sersly?  Isnt that in the northeast?
I guess "regionalism" is healthy.
What is the difference?

Now I stick to pellets and throw them in loose before crash cooling.  Fermentation is done but there is still yeast in suspension, so I really doubt that oxygen introduced is going to do much.

Interesting to me this use of dry hops prior to the end of fermentation or before the yeast has dropped...

I typically crash cool and then add the dryhop and warm up.  I guess because I was under the impression that yeasties take down the hop goodness and bury it in the cake.

Am I mis-informed, or just not very concerned with the potential oxidation?

[narvin]

I don't crash cool before dry hopping because I believe that the temperature also makes a difference.  Though, that could be a completely unfounded myth.

[majorvices]

OK, I get that beer can be oxidized by not p[urging.  But is there any evidence, either through research or anecdotally, that dry hopping causes oxidation?

This guy does process engineering at ABI and wrote this as his doctorate thesis. 

http://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1957/34093/Wolfe_thesis.pdf

He says the risk is reduced with pellets as opposed to whole cones, but some oxygen ingress is inevitable with dry hopping (it can be mitigated with purging, flushing the hop material, etc.).  He also had a pretty information-rich Reddit thread, but I don't think he went much into oxidation from dry hopping in it)

Again, anecdotally, Kimmich supposedly has his levels down in (I think) the double-digits per billion, which I have to imagine has some effect on the shelf life of the beer (I have had 8-9 month old Heady and it does change, but it is still excellent).  I also think the yeast in that beer is very good at cleaving glycoside bonds, which makes the beer better over time.  Though thats not verified   

Not saying other canning breweries don't achieve the same things with some of their beers, I just haven't tasted them.  So I guess in trying to make a great beer, I am trying to eliminate my process flaws one at a time

I started having oxidation woes after only a few weeks on the shelf, bottles and kegs. I started using a yeast brink, adding hops to it and then purging that vessel with co2 and then pumping that into the beer and shelf life was extended greatly. I brewed an Imperial Pils last year that went into package in May and this beer used heavy finishing hops but no dry hops. While the hop character has faded significantly there is very little signs of oxidation and the beer is still drinkable (though I wouldn't call it "delicious".)

I have become so adamant that minimizing o2 during dry hopping is so important that when I do 10 gallon batches I add hops, purge kegs and then rack beer. It may not be necessary on beers that will be consumed quickly but if you have the ability to do it (like anyone who dry hops in a corny) I think it is a good practice to follow.

[HoosierBrew]

I have become so adamant that minimizing o2 during dry hopping is so important that when I do 10 gallon batches I add hops, purge kegs and then rack beer. It may not be necessary on beers that will be consumed quickly but if you have the ability to do it (like anyone who dry hops in a corny) I think it is a good practice to follow.

Totally agree. That's pretty much what I do. The oxidation doesn't have to get to the 'cardboard/wet dog' stage to eliminate your dry hop aromas.

[majorvices]

Exactly. Oxidized hoppy beers have a flavor that reminds me of vanilla and old hay. And I don't like it. The hoppier the beer the worse it gets.

[blatz]

I have become so adamant that minimizing o2 during dry hopping is so important that when I do 10 gallon batches I add hops, purge kegs and then rack beer. It may not be necessary on beers that will be consumed quickly but if you have the ability to do it (like anyone who dry hops in a corny) I think it is a good practice to follow.

well, I think I am going to stick with putting hops in the keg and purging (using the liquid side so the CO2 goes in from the bottom) from now on.  now I'm debating whether its a waste of time/co2 to push the sanitizer out with CO2 before adding the hops and purging again.
Totally agree. That's pretty much what I do. The oxidation doesn't have to get to the 'cardboard/wet dog' stage to eliminate your dry hop aromas.

[coolman26]

Interesting information, my last IPA just kicked and I purged and dry hopped in the kegs.  One keg I used loose hops and purged the keg before I filled.  I used a screen on that tube, and transferred.  The other I just used a hop bag in the keg.  The IPA that was dry hopped and jumped to a new keg was much fresher and stayed fresher much longer.  I actually did that as an accident really.  I thought it would be the opposite.  The beer that had the hops in the bag didn't stay as fresh.  I did leave the bag in the beer, where the other got transferred after a week.  Maybe their is something to it as Major stated.  I pulled the last beer last night and it was still pretty good.  I brewed this beer in June. 

[mpietropaoli]

I'm glad to see some people on here actually use their senses when drinking their beer...

JK JK, big smile.  lolling, repeat.

I do typically appreciate 'easier is better', but not always.  I think this is an area that is far too often brushed under the rug by homebrewers.  Sanitation, ferment temp, ferment time, oxidation, in that order, are the most common problems I taste when evaluating beers brewed at home.  +1 as well to this problem not 'tasting' like oxidation.  It just tastes like not-fresh hoppy beer.

I think we will either add dry hops to a keg, purge, add beer, rack to new keg for serving.  We do have a conical and the ability to drop the yeast and keep it in the same tank.  So we may continue with the latter option as I think racking to a new co2-purged vessel (even if through the dip tube) may be riskier than just adding hops to the conical after the yeast has been dropped). 

VIPA/NEIPA refers to the juicier, heavier mouthfeel, less-bitter hop-forward beers (typically cloudy in appearance) produced by breweries such as Trillium, Foley, Alchemist, Hill Farmstead, Treehouse, Singlecut and others (but most say pioneered by Alchemist) that focus on a balance of the right fruity (typically stone and tropical fruit) esters AND hop aroma.  Essentially, these amount to IPA's that are more dependent on yeast strain and behavior for the final flavor profile, as opposed to a true West Coast which has more of a focus on pure hop aroma, neutral, non-estery yeast strain, often better clarity, with a firmer, lingering bitterness. 

What do you guys say, should I be writing style guidelines or what?

[denny]

I don't crash cool before dry hopping because I believe that the temperature also makes a difference.  Though, that could be a completely unfounded myth.

I think that maybe temp does make a difference, but that colder or warmer is not necessarily right or wrong.  It comes down to if you like the effect you get.

[blatz]

I think we will either add dry hops to a keg, purge, add beer, rack to new keg for serving.  We do have a conical and the ability to drop the yeast and keep it in the same tank.  So we may continue with the latter option as I think racking to a new co2-purged vessel (even if through the dip tube) may be riskier than just adding hops to the conical after the yeast has been dropped). 

I have a couple conicals as well (Blichmann) - but I find with the size of the opening, dropping the yeast out is almost comical - in practice, it rarely happens as the yeast stick to the side walls and after a quick yeast slug, beer channels its way into the opening.  perhaps other designs are better with this function.

I feel like I am introducing almost the same level of oxygen pickup risk the second I open the bale and put hops in - not to say that I'm uber scared about it, but how is that significantly different to a purged keg?  Also, putting the hops in the keg, purging, then adding beer gives you the opportunity to flush the hops themselves, which I don't know how I would do if just adding to the conical.

food for thought.

[mpietropaoli]

I feel like I am introducing almost the same level of oxygen pickup risk the second I open the bale and put hops in - not to say that I'm uber scared about it, but how is that significantly different to a purged keg?  Also, putting the hops in the keg, purging, then adding beer gives you the opportunity to flush the hops themselves, which I don't know how I would do if just adding to the conical.

food for thought.

Yeah this is a great point.  We have the extra kegs, so we will probably try the flush/pressurized rack and see how we like the result.  We are also trying the first dry hop-during-end-of-ferment blowoff thing for the first time in a long time too.  So I suspect with both of these, we will like the result. 

The only question I have is, when transferring from the dry-hopping keg to the serving keg, are you using an autosiphon or something to leave the additional sediment behind (in the dry hopping keg)?  Theoretically, there shouldn't be much, but with the yeasts we are using plus with the amount of dry hops, I expect there to be, well...more than I expect.  I suppose you could hacksaw a dip tube on one of them...