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Author Topic: To hydrate or not  (Read 4892 times)

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: To hydrate or not
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2016, 10:11:08 am »
I am so lazy, I prefer to spend the extra $3.50 on a second packet of dried yeast, rather than rehydrate.  Which is what I did yesterday when I brewed a 1.078 OG IPA.

haha I get it. this is one of those topics people feel strongly one way or the other, or land somewhere in between. I remember when Mark started talking about no stir plates...man it got people jacked.

Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
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Ger'merican Blonde
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Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: To hydrate or not
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2016, 10:33:18 am »
In case anyone stumbles on this thread and wants a little more info if they choose to rehydrate (explains somethings about dry yeast and rehydration):
http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/rehydrating-dry-yeast/
http://www.northernbrewer.com/connect/2010/06/the-importance-of-being-hydrated/

"Every strain of yeast has its own optimum rehydration temperature.  All of
them range between 95 F to 105F. Most of them closer to 105F.  The dried
yeast cell wall is fragile and it is the first few minutes (possibly
seconds) of rehydration that the warm temperature is critical while it is
reconstituting its cell wall structure.

As you drop the initial temperature of the water from 95 to 85 or 75 or 65F
the yeast leached out more and more of its insides damaging the each cell.
The yeast viability also drops proportionally.  At 95 - 105 F, there is
100% recovery of the viable dry yeast.  At 60F, there can be as much as 60%
dead cells.

The water should be tap water with the normal amount of hardness present.
The hardness is essential for good recovery. 250 -500 ppm hardness is
ideal. This means that deionized or distilled water should not be used.
Ideally, the warm rehydration water should contain about 0.5 - 1.0% yeast
extract

For the initial few minutes (perhaps seconds) of rehydration, the yeast
cell wall cannot differentiate what passes through the wall. Toxic
materials like sprays, hops, SO2 and sugars in high levels, that the yeast
normally can selectively keep from passing through its cell wall rush right
in and seriously damage the cells.  The moment that the cell wall is
properly reconstituted, the yeast can then regulate what goes in and out of
the cell.  That is why we hesitate to recommend rehydration in wort or
must.  Very dilute wort seems to be OK.

We recommend that the rehydrated yeast be added to the wort within 30
minutes.  We have built into each cell a large amount of glycogen and
trehalose that give the yeast a burst of energy to kick off the growth
cycle when it is in the wort.  It is quickly used up if the yeast is
rehydrated for more than 30 minutes.  There is no damage done here if it is
not immediately add to the wort.  You just do not get the added benefit of
that sudden burst of energy. We also recommend that you attemperate the
rehydrated yeast to with in 15F of the wort before adding to the wort.
Warm yeast into a cold wort will cause many of the yeast to produce petite
mutants that will never grow or ferment properly and will cause them to
produce H2S. The attemperation can take place over a very brief period by
adding, in increments, a small amount of the cooler wort to the rehydrated
yeast.

Many times we find that warm water is added to a very cold container that
drops the rehydrating water below the desired temperature.

Sometimes refrigerated, very cold, dry yeast is added directly to the warm
water with out giving it time to come to room temperature. The initial
water entering the cell is then cool.

How do many beer and wine makers have successful fermentations when they
ignore all the above?  I believe that it is just a numbers game.  Each gram
of Active Dry Yeast contains about 20 billion live yeast cells.  If you
slightly damage the cells, they have a remarkable ability to recover in the
rich wort.  If you kill 60% of the cell you still have 8 billion cells per
gram that can go on to do the job at a slower rate.

The manufacturer of Active Dry Beer Yeast would be remiss if they offered
rehydration instructions that were less than the very best that their data
indicated.

One very important factor that the distributor and beer maker should keep
in mind is that  Active Dry Yeast  is dormant or inactive and not inert, so
keep refrigerated at all times.  Do not store in a tin roofed warehouse
that becomes an oven or on a window sill that gets equally hot.

Active Dry Yeast looses about 20% of its activity in a year when it is
stored at 75 F and only 4% when refrigerated."
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 10:41:08 am by Wort-H.O.G. »
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

RPIScotty

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Re: To hydrate or not
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2016, 11:01:47 am »
I would think that, disregarding any flavor pro/con of rehydrating, that the improvement in performance warrants the small amount of time spent rehydrating, no?

Offline denny

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Re: To hydrate or not
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2016, 11:18:20 am »
I would think that, disregarding any flavor pro/con of rehydrating, that the improvement in performance warrants the small amount of time spent rehydrating, no?

If by "improvement in performance" you're talking about shortening lag time as I was, it's not a concern for me.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: To hydrate or not
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2016, 11:30:56 am »
dry or liquid- the goal is to minimize the amount of stress on your yeast. personal experience tells many of us that chucking a pack of dry yeast into average OG wort will get the job done with good results. just like with liquid yeast- experience has proven good results for me with 1 pack fresh pure pitch, starter on stir plate, starter shaken not stirred (ales for me). 

If you do go down the path of rehydrating (whatever your reasoning may be), I'd make sure its done properly (guidelines above in this thread).
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: To hydrate or not
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2016, 11:36:36 am »
I've used dry and rehydrated, many times each. The only difference I can see at all is in lag time, not beer/cider quality. So the laziness has won out and I just pitch dry.
Jon H.

RPIScotty

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Re: To hydrate or not
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2016, 01:31:37 pm »

I would think that, disregarding any flavor pro/con of rehydrating, that the improvement in performance warrants the small amount of time spent rehydrating, no?

If by "improvement in performance" you're talking about shortening lag time as I was, it's not a concern for me.

I guess in broad terms I was thinking about lag time as well as yeast health, shock, etc.

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: To hydrate or not
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2016, 08:15:05 pm »
Having done it both ways with equal results, I continue to go both routes - none for lighter ales, but rehydrate for larger ales.
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Offline 69franx

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Re: To hydrate or not
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2016, 08:22:39 pm »
I think one of Mark's main points was getting your yeast to the point of owning your wort is the important factor. If sanitation of equipment and care taken in transfer is all there, dry pitch is fine. Pitching an older pack dry into wort you drunkenly stumbled into making, you might have problems. I have pitched dry and rehydrated  and realistically have not noticed a difference. I did buy a tub of go ferm, so in order to clear up space, I have been rehydrating  with it to finish it off
Frank L.
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Conditioning: Nothing (UGH!)
In keg: Nothing (Double UGH!)
In the works:  House IPA, Dark Mild, Ballantine Ale clone(still trying to work this one into the schedule)

Offline mpietropaoli

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Re: To hydrate or not
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2016, 07:04:07 am »
If there is any question on your pitch rate, I would absolutely say rehydrating makes a difference.  We didn't rehydrate 34/70 on 14 gallons of bo pils and the beer had a pronounced red apple ester, which turned out to be ethyl hexanoate, which is produced by stressed yeast.  So we basically ended up with 14 gallons of alcoholic apple juice that I now maybe use for a brine. 

If you are making an ale and pitching more yeast than you need and are feeling lazy, just pitch the satchet.  I personally have found the risks of doing such outweigh the cost of sanitizing a container and some warm water to rehydrate and take care of your yeast. 
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Offline denny

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Re: To hydrate or not
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2016, 09:08:31 am »

I would think that, disregarding any flavor pro/con of rehydrating, that the improvement in performance warrants the small amount of time spent rehydrating, no?

If by "improvement in performance" you're talking about shortening lag time as I was, it's not a concern for me.

I guess in broad terms I was thinking about lag time as well as yeast health, shock, etc.

But we don't drink lag time, yeast health or shock..we drink the beer.  If there are no detectable affects, does anything else matter?
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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RPIScotty

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Re: To hydrate or not
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2016, 09:36:25 am »


I would think that, disregarding any flavor pro/con of rehydrating, that the improvement in performance warrants the small amount of time spent rehydrating, no?

If by "improvement in performance" you're talking about shortening lag time as I was, it's not a concern for me.

I guess in broad terms I was thinking about lag time as well as yeast health, shock, etc.

But we don't drink lag time, yeast health or shock..we drink the beer.  If there are no detectable affects, does anything else matter?

Good point.

Damn you and your laziness, I mean pragmatism!

Offline brewinhard

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Re: To hydrate or not
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2016, 12:31:03 pm »
In case anyone stumbles on this thread and wants a little more info if they choose to rehydrate (explains somethings about dry yeast and rehydration):
http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/rehydrating-dry-yeast/
http://www.northernbrewer.com/connect/2010/06/the-importance-of-being-hydrated/



The water should be tap water with the normal amount of hardness present.
The hardness is essential for good recovery. 250 -500 ppm hardness is
ideal. This means that deionized or distilled water should not be used.
Ideally, the warm rehydration water should contain about 0.5 - 1.0% yeast
extract



I disagree with this information.  If one is to rehydrate I would not suggest straight tap water as most people's tap water has either chlorine or chloramine in it.  I understand it is a small amount of water used, but I try to avoid adding it to any stage of my beer. Distilled or RO should not be used as stated either. I prefer store bought spring water that I know has been de-chlorinated or had chloramines removed. Just my 2 cents.  Thanks for posting that.

Offline PORTERHAUS

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Re: To hydrate or not
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2016, 08:06:56 am »
dry or liquid- the goal is to minimize the amount of stress on your yeast. personal experience tells many of us that chucking a pack of dry yeast into average OG wort will get the job done with good results. just like with liquid yeast- experience has proven good results for me with 1 pack fresh pure pitch, starter on stir plate, starter shaken not stirred (ales for me). 

If you do go down the path of rehydrating (whatever your reasoning may be), I'd make sure its done properly (guidelines above in this thread).

Best way of putting it I have heard in a long time. There is constant debate on liquid vs dry, rehydrate vs not, starters vs no starters...the bottom line is no matter what you are doing, you have one goal in mind and that is to treat the yeast properly, have plenty of it and it be in a healthy state. What is more damaging not rehydrating or not properly rehydrating if you go that route? Same can be said for the liquid vs dry argument. What good is using liquid just to use liquid if you do not have a proper pitch or your viability is for s***, yet people still argue which is better. I am primarily a dry yeast user, you can't beat the price, viability, ease of storage and simplicity to use. I do not always know when I am going to brew, a starter isn't always easy for me to plan or have ready. I do not usually see the freshest liquid strains at my LHBS...etc. I rehydrate following different directions per manufactuer and I have seen better overall results and that isn't just lag times. It's fermentation vigor, duration, attenuation...etc. But those that do not rehydrate also see acceptable results. If that is what we are looking at as a whole, if I was to not rehydrate I would simply use more dry yeast based on the fact that we know you are killing off a lot of yeast cells by pitching alone...it's a 6 or 1/2 dozen type of scenario. Homebrewing is very forgiving, do what works for you.

Online hopfenundmalz

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Re: To hydrate or not
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2016, 08:17:59 am »
I have done both, results have been fine for regular strength ales.

Does the yeast strain have an influence? I often wonder. The debate often is around US-05. There is the story of 34/70 giving poor results, above in a lager.

Some of the mead makers I know rehydrate with go-ferm. They are using wine yeast (71-B usually), going into high gravity must. Yeast health is important in that stressful, low nutrient environment, so the yeast need all the care and attention they need.



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