Author Topic: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment  (Read 9559 times)

Offline HoosierBrew

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 13030
  • Indianapolis,IN
Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2016, 11:30:24 PM »
Yes, but it's not a typical fermentation schedule for lager. Most people warm up at the end for a diacetyl rest, not halfway through.


Not so. Marshall is a proponent, as are many lager brewers now, of raising temp to ~ 65F after the beer has reached around 50-60% attenuation. By day 5 (for most lagers) the ester profile is set and you can raise temp to speed up fermentation and spur the yeast to get rid of diacetyl quicker. That's what he did here.

http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/

Has it been tested experimentally vs proper cold ferment?


I'd wager that the majority of lagers brewers here (some of which have won NHC medals) use this method. It works really well.
Jon H.

Offline charles1968

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 536
Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2016, 11:51:45 PM »
Yes, but it's not a typical fermentation schedule for lager. Most people warm up at the end for a diacetyl rest, not halfway through.


Not so. Marshall is a proponent, as are many lager brewers now, of raising temp to ~ 65F after the beer has reached around 50-60% attenuation. By day 5 (for most lagers) the ester profile is set and you can raise temp to speed up fermentation and spur the yeast to get rid of diacetyl quicker. That's what he did here.

http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/

Has it been tested experimentally vs proper cold ferment?


I'd wager that the majority of lagers brewers here (some of which have won NHC medals) use this method. It works really well.

Maybe so, but it doesn't follow that lager brewed by Marshall's fast method is indistinguishable from true cold fermented lager. The temperature experiment therefore isn't valid. It simply shows that warm fermented lager tastes the same as lager brewed with the accelerated schedule.

Maybe cold fermented lager tastes the same too, but Marshall hasn't shown that.

Offline Stevie

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 6858
Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2016, 12:05:23 AM »
I would have sworn he had done the accelerated lager as an experiment, but looks like he hasn't. 

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 9658
  • Milford, MI
Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2016, 12:05:52 AM »
Yes, but it's not a typical fermentation schedule for lager. Most people warm up at the end for a diacetyl rest, not halfway through.


Not so. Marshall is a proponent, as are many lager brewers now, of raising temp to ~ 65F after the beer has reached around 50-60% attenuation. By day 5 (for most lagers) the ester profile is set and you can raise temp to speed up fermentation and spur the yeast to get rid of diacetyl quicker. That's what he did here.

http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/

Has it been tested experimentally vs proper cold ferment?

Scroll down to the graphs A-F. Read about each. What is proper?
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers
Jeff Rankert
AHA Governing Committee
AHA Lifetime Member
BJCP National
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline charles1968

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 536
Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2016, 12:20:59 AM »
Scroll down to the graphs A-F. Read about each. What is proper?
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers

Perhaps the nearest one to the fast lager method is F (ferment at 9 Celsius to >80% attenuation then raise to 20Celsius to finish). The fast ferment method ferments at 10-13 Celsius to 50% attenuation and then raises. But in the lastest brulosophy temperature experiment, the temperature is raised to 20 Celsius at 32% attentuation. In no way does that resemble any of the profiles on the braukaiser link.

In any case the best evidence is a triangle taste test isn't it? Otherwise we're back to square one.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 12:22:50 AM by charles1968 »

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 9658
  • Milford, MI
Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2016, 12:26:04 AM »
Scroll down to the graphs A-F. Read about each. What is proper?
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers

Perhaps the nearest one to the fast lager method is F (ferment at 9 Celsius to >80% attenuation then raise to 20Celsius to finish). The fast ferment method ferments at 10-13 Celsius to 50% attenuation and then raises. But in the lastest brulosophy temperature experiment, the temperature is raised to 20 Celsius at 32% attentuation. In no way does that resemble any of the profiles on the braukaiser link.

In any case the best evidence is a triangle taste test isn't it? Otherwise we're back to square one.

I didn't realize he was ramping so high and early. I pretty much do F.
Jeff Rankert
AHA Governing Committee
AHA Lifetime Member
BJCP National
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline Thirsty_Monk

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2432
  • Eau Claire WI
    • Lazy Monk Brewing
Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2016, 03:04:50 AM »
Now I have done a fair amount of fermentation with 2124. Some people had a chance to taste the results. I fermented from lagers to ales and even a little bit of Belgian. This is a very versatile and clean yeast.

Now can you tell me what is a difference between ale vs lager? Made them all with the same yeast.

Happy brewing.
Na Zdravie

Lazy Monk Brewing
http://www.lazymonkbrewing.com

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 21723
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2016, 05:03:54 PM »
I love the brulosophy temp experiments, but this one needs repeating. Marshall raised the temperature of the cold-fermented batch to same temp as the other batch when gravity had fallen from 1053 to 1032. Apparent attenuation 40%, actual attenuation 32%. The "cold-fermented" lager was actually mostly fermented warm, so of course it tasted just the same as the other. In the previous two lager temperature experiments the temp was also ramped up prematurely.

FWIW, I think he was just using his normal lager fermentation schedule for the 'cold fermented' batch.

Yes, but it's not a typical fermentation schedule for lager. Most people warm up at the end for a diacetyl rest, not halfway through. Both lagers were fermented mostly warm. Arguably what the experiment shows isn't that temperature doesn't matter but that the fast fermentation schedule doesn't work.
[/quote

It's more typical than you might think, especially among homebrewers.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline ynotbrusum

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3436
Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2016, 07:26:17 PM »
The fermentation schedule Marshall espouses (and I use from time to time, though I have proven myself to be too lazy to adopt full-time, despite many good results, admittedly) may be somewhat yeast dependent for consistently good results.  I am fairly convinced that the use of certain yeasts really require a more traditional approach due to flocculation rate, diacetyl reduction abilities and flavor profile development.  But I fine infrequently and that may be integral to Marshall's approach, also.

Hodge Garage Brewing: "Brew with a glad heart!"

Offline majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 9913
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
    • Yellowhammer Brewing Company
Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2016, 07:35:02 PM »
I had it get up to 80 once and while I didn't care for the results and dumped the beer I was surprised at how clean it was.

Nice.  If it was still pretty clean, then what made you decide to dump it?

Pretty clean does not equal lager clean. And it was a 30 bbl batch that I didn't want in the market place.

Offline 69franx

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3156
  • Bloatarian Brewing League
Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2016, 08:07:44 PM »
Almost 1000 gallons down the drain, I understand protecting the brand, but was it a tough call to not sell in tap room at least? Or was it an easy call? I know which of my homebrews that I would not pass around to friends, but I got through it. Different scale I understand. And I know megas dump more for less issues for the same reason(s). Just curious, no criticism
Frank L.
Fermenting: Ringler Pilsner (thanx Ron)
Conditioning: BVIP (thanx Denny)
In keg: Traquair House Clone (Skotrat style)
In the works:  Czech Dark Lager, American Pale Ale

Offline chumley

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1011
Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2016, 10:51:07 PM »
Am I the only one who ferments lagers at 50°F for a month, then kegs and lagers at 32°F for 6 weeks?  I never let my lagers get above 50°F.

I brewed with WLP833 once in the low 60s and ended up with a fruit bomb.

Offline HoosierBrew

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 13030
  • Indianapolis,IN
Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2016, 11:14:39 PM »
I started the quick lager method when it was posted by Tasty McDole, a guy known to make pretty good beer. I consider my palate pretty good and I can't find any difference from lagers I made the long, time consuming way. Except I'm a better brewer now, so I like them better. To each his own though.
Jon H.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 21723
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2016, 11:18:08 PM »
Am I the only one who ferments lagers at 50°F for a month, then kegs and lagers at 32°F for 6 weeks?  I never let my lagers get above 50°F.

I brewed with WLP833 once in the low 60s and ended up with a fruit bomb.

These days, you may be.  The fast lager schedule is nothing new.  I believe it comes from Narziss?  You should try it.  I can make lagers every bit as good as the "old fashioned" (YOUR) way in a fraction of the time.  As long as you keep the temps low for the first 3-7 days, there are no ill effects I've found to raising it after that.  A week or two of lagering and they're done.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline erockrph

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 6229
  • Chepachet, RI
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: W-34/70 Fermentation Temp exBEERiment
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2016, 01:06:47 AM »
Am I the only one who ferments lagers at 50°F for a month, then kegs and lagers at 32°F for 6 weeks?  I never let my lagers get above 50°F.

I brewed with WLP833 once in the low 60s and ended up with a fruit bomb.

These days, you may be.  The fast lager schedule is nothing new.  I believe it comes from Narziss?  You should try it.  I can make lagers every bit as good as the "old fashioned" (YOUR) way in a fraction of the time.  As long as you keep the temps low for the first 3-7 days, there are no ill effects I've found to raising it after that.  A week or two of lagering and they're done.
In my experience, some of my maltier lagers continue to improve up to maybe 6 weeks or so of cold conditioning. But by that time the keg is half empty because it's good enough after 2 weeks and I can't keep myself from stealing "samples" a pint at a time every few days.

I don't typically fine my beers, so that may have something to do with it.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer