Author Topic: Beer Experiments  (Read 1388 times)

Offline flbrewer

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2161
    • View Profile
Beer Experiments
« on: February 17, 2016, 11:09:05 PM »
Between Brulosophy and Experimental Brewing, there is a lot of tasting experiments going on! As I listened to the most recent EB podcast today I thought....what the hell is really the point of the experiments?  :o

While I think these are all very interesting, I think the consensus (so far) has been that there is no consensus! I would be willing to wager that the same response would happen to people if we gave them the same commercial beers or the same brownie recipe, the same etc. etc.

I think it's way more physiological than anything else. It would be nice to have some consensus on some brewing practices, recipes, etc. but I think either it doesn't exist or we are a long way away from attaining it. In the meantime, I'll aimlessly follow the results!

Keep up the great work Denny, Drew, and Marshall!


Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 19942
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: Beer Experiments
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2016, 11:14:51 PM »
Between Brulosophy and Experimental Brewing, there is a lot of tasting experiments going on! As I listened to the most recent EB podcast today I thought....what the hell is really the point of the experiments?  :o

While I think these are all very interesting, I think the consensus (so far) has been that there is no consensus! I would be willing to wager that the same response would happen to people if we gave them the same commercial beers or the same brownie recipe, the same etc. etc.

I think it's way more physiological than anything else. It would be nice to have some consensus on some brewing practices, recipes, etc. but I think either it doesn't exist or we are a long way away from attaining it. In the meantime, I'll aimlessly follow the results!

Keep up the great work Denny, Drew, and Marshall!

Well, in the case of the whirlpool temp experiment, there was consensus that it made a difference.  But there were obviously 2 schools of thought on what the difference was!  That's why we discussed the subjectivity of tasting and the influences on it.  It's not something you can actually quantify.  So, in the end, we're just trying to provide info that can help you make better/more interesting beer.  How you apply that info is up to you.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline HoosierBrew

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 13030
  • Indianapolis,IN
    • View Profile
Re: Beer Experiments
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2016, 11:17:45 PM »
I'll take all the good info I can get. More the merrier.
Jon H.

Offline flbrewer

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2161
    • View Profile
Re: Beer Experiments
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2016, 11:25:59 PM »
FWIW, I'm all for these experiments, I would just like to see higher rates of agreements in the results!

Offline erockrph

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 6229
  • Chepachet, RI
    • View Profile
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: Beer Experiments
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2016, 01:59:00 AM »
I can think of a few reasons why the results aren't as black and white as we'd (ideally) like to see:

A) You have multiple tasters all giving their own responses to the experiment. That's like trying to weigh a series of items using a different scale each time. You will likely see a trend appear over time, but since none are calibrated to each other you won't hit an ideal level of precision across the board. A bowling ball will read fine on a bathroom scale or a fruit scale, but will max out a gram scale. An aspirin would be fine on the gram scale, but not the larger ones.

B) Each experiment tries to hold as many variables the same, and tests a specific variable. So the results from that experiment are only applicable within those specific variables. The whirlpool temp experiment may give different results in a blond ale vs a stout vs an IPA. Maybe different varieties of hops give different results. Maybe different yeast strains would have an effect, or base malt, or fermentation profile, etc. Basically, you have to view each experiment as a starting point, or a few data points, and then add that in to your own experience to decide how it is going to impact your brewing.

C) By nature, these experiments have a relatively small sample size. As you add more and more data, trends start to become clearer. Denny and Drew have taken an approach to get more data points, but at the expense of less control over the testing because of the crowdsourcing aspect. We've already seen some potential issues in the first two experiments. I applaud them for taking the right approach and calling suspect data into question, and analyzing the numbers both with and without the outliers.

I was fortunate enough to have done a test of the 120F whirlpool before the most recent XB podcast was posted. I feel that I have gotten some good results from this, and the recent IGOR experiment gave me some confidence that there is at least something to this technique. That makes me want to explore it further to see how I want to apply it to my own brewing. That's all I could want and more out of an experiment like this.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline dannyjed

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1041
  • Toledo, OH
    • View Profile
Re: Beer Experiments
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2016, 02:28:07 AM »
I like the fact that these experiments are leaving more questions to be answered.
Dan Chisholm

Offline dbeechum

  • Administrator
  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • *****
  • Posts: 2719
  • Pasadena, CA
    • View Profile
    • Experimental Brewing
Re: Beer Experiments
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2016, 04:37:19 AM »
By the very nature of these things - it's going to be hard to get a clear answer from a matter that's so inherently subjective.

I still want to setup an experiment that's the whole "doing everything the 'correct' way vs. the 'wrong' way" and see the results of the tasting.
Drew Beechum - Maltosefalcons.com
- Vote in the AHA GC Election! - http://bit.ly/1aV9GVd  -
-----
Burbling:
Gnome is in the Details
*Experimental Brewing - The Book*
Tap:
Peanut Butter Jelly Time
Tupelo Mead
Farmhouse Brett Saison

Offline pete b

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3123
  • Barre, Ma
    • View Profile
Re: Beer Experiments
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2016, 12:28:03 PM »
By the very nature of these things - it's going to be hard to get a clear answer from a matter that's so inherently subjective.

I still want to setup an experiment that's the whole "doing everything the 'correct' way vs. the 'wrong' way" and see the results of the tasting.
If you need tips on how to do things the "wrong" way I'm your man.
Don't let the bastards cheer you up.

Offline homoeccentricus

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2008
  • A twerp from Antwerp
    • View Profile
Re: Beer Experiments
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2016, 01:13:26 PM »
Same here. How about some VERY radical wrong ways, such as:
- forget the malt
- forget to grind the malt
- forget to mash
- forget to boil
- forget the hops

etc. etc.
Frank P.

Staggering on the shoulders of giant dwarfs.

Offline reverseapachemaster

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3208
    • View Profile
    • Brain Sparging on Brewing
Re: Beer Experiments
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2016, 03:36:45 PM »
A single experiment with a small sample size is not going to produce a conclusive answer to anything. These experiments should really be thought of as trying to open up accepting dogma and encouraging people to think about how they brew and why they brew that way.

 It's disappointing to see people tout the conclusions of a single experiment as conclusive, universal facts that have settled all questions about a particular issue but I am seeing that with increasing frequency across the internets.
Heck yeah I blog about homebrewing: Brain Sparging on Brewing

Offline HoosierBrew

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 13030
  • Indianapolis,IN
    • View Profile
Re: Beer Experiments
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2016, 03:38:59 PM »
A single experiment with a small sample size is not going to produce a conclusive answer to anything. These experiments should really be thought of as trying to open up accepting dogma and encouraging people to think about how they brew and why they brew that way.



I agree

Jon H.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 4439
  • Play Nice
    • View Profile
    • Harvey's Brewhaus
Re: Beer Experiments
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2016, 03:55:06 PM »
i Just commented on this topic in another thread. like anything, there are facts and then there are individual perceptions that don't necessarily equate to facts. Objectively looking at something that is highly subjective is difficult to do sometimes, and declaring it a fact should be done with caution IMO.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline dbeechum

  • Administrator
  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • *****
  • Posts: 2719
  • Pasadena, CA
    • View Profile
    • Experimental Brewing
Re: Beer Experiments
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2016, 04:19:18 PM »
It's disappointing to see people tout the conclusions of a single experiment as conclusive, universal facts that have settled all questions about a particular issue but I am seeing that with increasing frequency across the internets.

Yeah, I think a lot of people look to things "scientifical" in nature for their certainties and to reinforce what they already believe is true. Plus a lot of lay people have been trained to react this way by breathless media reports about the current likelihood that eggs will kill you.

One of the things I like about what we're doing is we've built into the setup the notion of a repeated trial. It's imperfect, what with the lack of precision inherent to homebrewers, but the results are only part of the reason to do these things. The discussion is the fun part and the thinking scientifically is good for the brain.

Plus, we do try to encourage people to take the results with a notion towards figuring out if they agree and if they see the same thing.
Drew Beechum - Maltosefalcons.com
- Vote in the AHA GC Election! - http://bit.ly/1aV9GVd  -
-----
Burbling:
Gnome is in the Details
*Experimental Brewing - The Book*
Tap:
Peanut Butter Jelly Time
Tupelo Mead
Farmhouse Brett Saison

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 4439
  • Play Nice
    • View Profile
    • Harvey's Brewhaus
Re: Beer Experiments
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2016, 04:22:02 PM »
It's disappointing to see people tout the conclusions of a single experiment as conclusive, universal facts that have settled all questions about a particular issue but I am seeing that with increasing frequency across the internets.

Yeah, I think a lot of people look to things "scientifical" in nature for their certainties and to reinforce what they already believe is true. Plus a lot of lay people have been trained to react this way by breathless media reports about the current likelihood that eggs will kill you.

One of the things I like about what we're doing is we've built into the setup the notion of a repeated trial. It's imperfect, what with the lack of precision inherent to homebrewers, but the results are only part of the reason to do these things. The discussion is the fun part and the thinking scientifically is good for the brain.

Plus, we do try to encourage people to take the results with a notion towards figuring out if they agree and if they see the same thing.

^^^^ Great to see this ...good stuff!
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline HoosierBrew

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 13030
  • Indianapolis,IN
    • View Profile
Re: Beer Experiments
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2016, 04:30:05 PM »
Plus, we do try to encourage people to take the results with a notion towards figuring out if they agree and if they see the same thing.


Totally what it's about for me.
Jon H.