Author Topic: Attention To Detail - Differences in Final Product  (Read 3905 times)

Offline martinj

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Re: Attention To Detail - Differences in Final Product
« Reply #30 on: February 29, 2016, 05:28:54 AM »
Two beers, from the same ingredients that taste noticeably different due to eliminating "unnecessary steps" during the process. Hrm... not so sure, but I'm sure that experiment's been done before... or not.

If you make an omelette and cook it two different ways you make two different omelettes.

Yea, but beer's perhaps a different animal.  Leave out a whirlfloc tablet can you taste a difference?  I suppose if you keep leaving things out the difference might become noticeable but I'm not overly convinced.

Leave out a whirlfloc tablet? Not a big deal. fermenting a lager at 75°F? Maybe a little bigger deal.... As are a number of other things that were mentioned previously. pH, mash temps, water profiles, etc.. Ignore these and, as said previously, you can still make ok beer. Pay proper attention to them, and I guarantee you will taste the difference.
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Re: Attention To Detail - Differences in Final Product
« Reply #31 on: February 29, 2016, 01:28:21 PM »
It's not that one totally ignores all things, some things for sure, but it's that they're not done to the same level of detail.

An easy test is give two different brewers one recipe (say Denny Conns Wrye Smile IPA).

When all is said and done can other people identity both end products as Denny Conns Wrye Smile IPA (of course all tasters would need one from the man himself first and then asked if the others closely resemble the first, i.e. are they the same beer)?

An interesting juxtaposition.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 01:32:49 PM by hawkeye »

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Attention To Detail - Differences in Final Product
« Reply #32 on: February 29, 2016, 02:29:59 PM »
It's not that one totally ignores all things, some things for sure, but it's that they're not done to the same level of detail.

An easy test is give two different brewers one recipe (say Denny Conns Wrye Smile IPA).

Too much emphasis is given to ingredients, and not enough is given to process.

My club has done a couple of activities where a recipe was decided on, and ingredients were purchased and then split in to "kits". So everyone got the same malts and hops weighed out, and used the same yeast. Variables were water, equipment and process. The results were judged using a panel and BJCP score sheets.

The results were from the low 20s to the low 40s. Roughly a 20 point spread, I don't remember the exact numbers.

If anyone wants to try this it is a fun activity, and a learning experience for club members.
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hawkeye

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Re: Attention To Detail - Differences in Final Product
« Reply #33 on: February 29, 2016, 02:50:40 PM »
An interesting exercise Hops and Malts.

Well sure, everyone knew the ingredients were the same, but if the tasters are blind (not told that it's suppose to be the same, then asked if it is...)

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Attention To Detail - Differences in Final Product
« Reply #34 on: February 29, 2016, 03:22:25 PM »
An interesting exercise Hops and Malts.

Well sure, everyone knew the ingredients were the same, but if the tasters are blind (not told that it's suppose to be the same, then asked if it is...)
Try it.
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Offline euge

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Re: Attention To Detail - Differences in Final Product
« Reply #35 on: February 29, 2016, 03:31:45 PM »
So what I got from Jeff's answer based on the "activity", is an implied No to the original question?

But if the only variable were the brewer(s) and all other factors somehow remained the same the replication would be closer IMO. In the club study the recipe is the only variable that didn't change. Everything else did so it is to be expected the beers would vary in such a wide degree.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Attention To Detail - Differences in Final Product
« Reply #36 on: February 29, 2016, 04:06:23 PM »
So what I got from Jeff's answer based on the "activity", is an implied No to the original question?

But if the only variable were the brewer(s) and all other factors somehow remained the same the replication would be closer IMO. In the club study the recipe is the only variable that didn't change. Everything else did so it is to be expected the beers would vary in such a wide degree.
The ingredients didn't change, except for the water.

The recipe changed, as each Brewer used their equipment and process.

rec·i·pe
ˈresəˌpē/
noun
noun: recipe; plural noun: recipes
a set of instructions for preparing a particular dish, including a list of the ingredients required.
"a traditional Indonesian recipe"
synonyms:   cooking instructions/directions; archaicreceipt
"a tasty recipe"


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Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline denny

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Re: Attention To Detail - Differences in Final Product
« Reply #37 on: February 29, 2016, 04:29:42 PM »
Given a beer brewed by an experienced brewer that meticulously measures, weighs and calculates every detail (a perfect process, hitting all numbers) and a beer brewed by an experienced brewer that is "casual" in measuring, weighing and calculating, perhaps skips things they deem unnecessary - what differences would be experienced in tasting the final product?

Either none, almost none, or a lot.  I am extremely accurate in weights and measures, but I still skip a lot of other stuff I find unnecessary.  Your questions is way too braod.  You assume that those minor differences will make a difference to the beer, and I don't think they necessarily will.
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Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Attention To Detail - Differences in Final Product
« Reply #38 on: February 29, 2016, 04:34:08 PM »
So what I got from Jeff's answer based on the "activity", is an implied No to the original question?

But if the only variable were the brewer(s) and all other factors somehow remained the same the replication would be closer IMO. In the club study the recipe is the only variable that didn't change. Everything else did so it is to be expected the beers would vary in such a wide degree.

In that experiment the only significant variable should be the brewer and particularly the brewer's meticulousness with their process. The basic brewing equipment should not produce that different of beer across different five gallon systems especially if those systems are dialed in well by the brewer, which goes to the brewer's meticulousness. Minor equipment may vary more (e.g. measurement equipment) but again that really goes to the brewer's meticulousness and significance put on the details. Even the brewer's choice in water is a factor closely related to the brewer's own meticulousness and skill.
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Offline euge

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Re: Attention To Detail - Differences in Final Product
« Reply #39 on: February 29, 2016, 04:50:51 PM »
Well if a "recipe" was "decided upon" then the brewers needed to brew (process) within set parameters. But if the process was left up to the brewer then they just received "ingredients" not a recipe at all- and decided on their own how it was to be prepared.

In regards to the OP I proposed the theoretical scenario where only the brewer changes and the playing field is level. They use the same familiar equipment, water, ingredients and method and provided instructions with a defined goal. One cuts corners- the other doesn't. My opinion is the resulting beer will pretty close. On different systems all bets are off.

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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Attention To Detail - Differences in Final Product
« Reply #40 on: February 29, 2016, 05:02:15 PM »
Well if a "recipe" was "decided upon" then the brewers needed to brew (process) within set parameters. But if the process was left up to the brewer then they just received "ingredients" not a recipe at all- and decided on their own how it was to be prepared.

In regards to the OP I proposed the theoretical scenario where only the brewer changes and the playing field is level. They use the same familiar equipment, water, ingredients and method and provided instructions with a defined goal. One cuts corners- the other doesn't. My opinion is the resulting beer will pretty close. On different systems all bets are off.
Yeah, my bad there. A kit was decided on, and I called it a "recipe". The club members brewed their way. Different beers resulted.

Pros like Vinnie Culrizo give out Pliny the Elder "recipes" even with some process details, and say at best we will make something like their beer, as we don't have their equipment or procedures.

When breweries put in new bigger brew houses, they need to make adjustments to replicate the beer, everything else being identical.
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hawkeye

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Re: Attention To Detail - Differences in Final Product
« Reply #41 on: February 29, 2016, 05:15:19 PM »
Alle meine Bier geht runter wie Öl.  Also ich bin sicher!


hawkeye

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Re: Attention To Detail - Differences in Final Product
« Reply #42 on: February 29, 2016, 05:38:22 PM »
In regards to the OP I proposed the theoretical scenario where only the brewer changes and the playing field is level. They use the same familiar equipment, water, ingredients and method and provided instructions with a defined goal. One cuts corners- the other doesn't. My opinion is the resulting beer will pretty close.

Seems like that would be a valid experiment.

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Attention To Detail - Differences in Final Product
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2016, 12:08:16 AM »
I think attention to details and being a little OCD is the only *consistent* path to great beer.  It can happen once by serendipity, but it takes a great deal of effort & thought to make lightening strike more than once in the same spot.


 I do agree that it's not hard to make good beer. Consistently really good, another story. Every time I make a beer I ask myself "Would I pay $ for this?". If the answer is no, I'm pissed. There's room for lots of approaches.

I am most definitely in the same boat here.  If my beer is not up to my standards, I have no problem dumping it down the drain. It is only beer after all, and frees me up to brew another, hopefully better batch I am proud to call my own.

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Attention To Detail - Differences in Final Product
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2016, 12:09:09 AM »
I don't doubt the anal approach (what did I just say there?).

Or do you?  That gave me a huge laugh.  Thanks.