[denny]

But still, what are we simplifying? How about I secondary one batch and not another? How about I mashout one and not another? Your premise is too vague.

Have you done these experiments? Also, what does simplifying have to do with attention to detail? Attention to detail does not = more complicated.

ALL OF THIS^^^^^

[majorvices]

What are you simplifying?

Were you this philosophical stoner type in college? "If I could smell from my butt, would everything smell like crap?"

That's a very rude post.  I haven't been rude to anyone.

I personally feel you were rude to me. I took 15-20 minutes trying to reply to your post in a thoughtful manor and you couldn't take 60 seconds to be bothered to read it. The irony is that you don't have 60 seconds to read my thoughts, yet you don't mind wasting every one else's time with this pointless thread.

By the way you imply you are "advanced" but if you think that none of the stuff you posted that I replied to is important or think we need to experiment on 'whether we need to take OF or FG readings" then you don't seem very advanced to me.

[martinj]

What are you simplifying?

Were you this philosophical stoner type in college? "If I could smell from my butt, would everything smell like crap?"

That's a very rude post.  I haven't been rude to anyone.

I personally feel you were rude to me. I took 15-20 minutes trying to reply to your post in a thoughtful manor and you couldn't take 60 seconds to be bothered to read it. The irony is that you don't have 60 seconds to read my thoughts, yet you don't mind wasting every one else's time with this pointless thread.

By the way you imply you are "advanced" but if you think that none of the stuff you posted that I replied to is important or think we need to experiment on 'whether we need to take OF or FG readings" then you don't seem very advanced to me.

I think the OP was rude to a number of folks here. Anytime someone tries to respond in a thoughtful, meaningful manner and is either ignored totally or their answer is passed over with little thought or regard, that is being rude in my book.
I don't mean to imply that I think that every post on a thread requires a response, but it's pretty obvious that some pretty darned knowledgeable and experienced folks are not being given their due here.....

[hawkeye]

Excuse me sir, but you took those points out of a post and turned them into questions, taking each out of the context of the original post, which is simply a list of things that could be omitted or simplified during brewing (in contrast to not omitting the step or the more complex solution).  You then posited your knowledge in an attempt to make yourself look knowledgeable about the end result and get an 'atta boy out of it.

The empirical knowledge you posted is nothing new.

Adding to, modifying or clarifying the list would be contributing to the thread.  Constant counter pointing with opinion, "you" oriented posts and "this^^^" type posts doesn't contribute anything.

[erockrph]

Excuse me sir, but you took those points out of a post and turned them into questions, taking each out of the context of the original post, which is simply a list of things that could be omitted or simplified during brewing (in contrast to not omitting the step or the more complex solution).  You then posited your knowledge in an attempt to make yourself look knowledgeable about the end result and get an 'atta boy out of it.

The empirical knowledge you posted is nothing new.

Adding to, modifying or clarifying the list would be contributing to the thread.  Constant counter pointing with opinion, "you" oriented posts and "this^^^" type posts doesn't contribute anything.

Actually, your original post specifically asks what differences one would expect in the final product, to which you received many thoughtful responses. Keep track of your trolling, buddy:

Given a beer brewed by an experienced brewer that meticulously measures, weighs and calculates every detail (a perfect process, hitting all numbers) and a beer brewed by an experienced brewer that is "casual" in measuring, weighing and calculating, perhaps skips things they deem unnecessary - what differences would be experienced in tasting the final product?

I think from this point on, I for one will choose TL;DR your posts. Good day, sir.

[majorvices]

Excuse me sir, but you took those points out of a post and turned them into questions, taking each out of the context of the original post, which is simply a list of things that could be omitted or simplified during brewing (in contrast to not omitting the step or the more complex solution).  You then posited your knowledge in an attempt to make yourself look knowledgeable about the end result and get an 'atta boy out of it.

The empirical knowledge you posted is nothing new.

Adding to, modifying or clarifying the list would be contributing to the thread.  Constant counter pointing with opinion, "you" oriented posts and "this^^^" type posts doesn't contribute anything.

wow. If you think I need "atta boys" from this forum you are really confused. And you may want to improve your tone, friend. You are very close to crossing forum rule #3

3. Be respectful of the questions and comments of others. It is OK to disagree with someone, but do so with respect. Keep the AHA forum friendly and encouraging of everyone's participation. We will not tolerate rudeness, insults, personal attacks, inflammatory remarks, threats, racial/ethnic slurs, trolling, flame baiting or similarly disruptive postings.

I was only trying to help, I thought your "list" was you finally clarifying WTF you meant.

[hawkeye]

His/mine/your empirical knowledge doesn't do justice to the "tasting" of the final product.  It needs an experiment to be conducted which is where the conversation was going until it devolved into opinion, meta discussion, etc..

[Stevie]

His/mine/your empirical knowledge doesn't do justice to the "tasting" of the final product.  It needs an experiment to be conducted which is where the conversation was going until it devolved into opinion, meta discussion, etc..

Do it a report back.

[erockrph]

His/mine/your empirical knowledge doesn't do justice to the "tasting" of the final product.  It needs an experiment to be conducted which is where the conversation was going until it devolved into opinion, meta discussion, etc..

A) This is a public forum. Whether you've started the thread or not, you do not own it.

B) "Meta discussion" is the norm here. If that isn't your thing, maybe this isn't the best place for your threads. Perhaps start a blog or something...

[majorvices]

His/mine/your empirical knowledge doesn't do justice to the "tasting" of the final product.  It needs an experiment to be conducted which is where the conversation was going until it devolved into opinion, meta discussion, etc..

What makes you think in my 20+ years of brewing both home and pro that I haven't experimented or experienced these differences? If you didn't read my response how do you know I didn't include the repsonses to each one of the data points in your list? I'm done with this thread and if it keeps on going into the toilette or gets rude again I am locking it.

[hawkeye]

I've given you much credit, in fact calling your response empirical, meaning based on observation and experience but I don't believe it's a replacement for an experiment.  You haven't accepted that and are instead railing against me for whatever reason.

[majorvices]

I've given you much credit, in fact calling your response empirical, meaning based on observation and experience but I don't believe it's a replacement for an experiment.  You haven't accepted that and are instead railing against me for whatever reason.

I guess I'll bite one more time. Let's just say, from empirical evidence, I do know what not taking a FG reading can result in. I've had to recall exploding bottles from the market place. Every single item in the list you posted I have experienced either home or pro. It's not fair to assume that I either haven't experimented or experienced consequences from all the points on the list you have made.

[hawkeye]

Relax buddy, I'm not demeaning you, I'm giving you credit for your experience and knowledge.

Now if one wanted to construct an experiment to document the differences in taste of the end product and/or are the end products distinguishable from each other - what items in the brewing process could be dumbed down, relaxed, simplified or omitted?

Voila we have an initial list.

1.) Whirlfloc/Irish Moss
  Precise: Use it
  Simplify: Don't use it
2.) Hydrometer readings (OG and FG!)
  Precise: Measure Both
  Simplify: Take one or the other or neither
3.) Fermentation Temperature measurements (still fermented in an area that's at an acceptable temp)
 Precise: Temperature controlled freezer
 Simplify: Ferment in an area that's an acceptable temp
4.) Yeast Nutrient
 Precise: Use it
 Simplify: Don't Use it
5.) Pitching Temperature measurement
 Precise: Measure with thermometer using wort chiller
 Simplify: Don't measure just chill until the wort feels cool or the pot feels cool
6.) pH
 Precise: Measure and adjust both the mash ph and the boil ph
 Simplify: Either don't measure or use test strips
7.) Water Adjustments
 Precise: Measure using gram scale and water calculator
 Simplify: Don't adjust or just use volume measurements

That's the general gist of an experiment and others have suggested different approaches in the thread.  Your knowledge and my knowledge tells us that the end user will be able to distinguish the precise from the simplified but in a real life taste testing is that what happens?

Have you ever had your customers come back and say "Hey this beer's not what it used to be?"... Well what changed?  To what extent did your process changed for that to happened? 

(All just hypothetical questions to demonstrate where the thread was going - no need to answer.)

[Stevie]

[hawkeye]

Stevie, please remove that post and either participate in a reasonable fashion or just go away.