Author Topic: Need a little advice... (American Mild)  (Read 2348 times)

Offline Phil_M

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Need a little advice... (American Mild)
« on: February 29, 2016, 06:19:23 PM »
I'm brewing what I'm calling an "American Mild" this weekend. Recipe is based upon Patinson's "Tetley's Mild", but using American ingredients.

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.nl/2014/01/lets-brew-wednesday-1945-tetleys-mild.html

68.6% Pale Malt
14/9% Flaked Barley
16.5% Invert No. 2

17.6 IBU of Cascade @ 180 minutes
4.1 IBU of Cascade @ 30 minutes

Two questions:
With American pale malt being less flavorful than British pale malt, what would be a good way to make up for that while still using domestic ingredients? Munich malt? Amber malt?

I plan on using Wyeast 1968 for this beer - Can anyone recommend a good fermentation temp for this beer? With so little in the recipe I feel that the yeast is really going to have to shine, I'd rather not "wing it" and pick a number in 60's without some background.


And yes, I know it's technically not all domestic, as I'm using UK invert sugar and yeast.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 01:21:33 AM by Phil_M »
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline kramerog

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Re: Need a little advice...
« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2016, 06:36:14 PM »
Where are you getting invert?

Offline denny

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Re: Need a little advice...
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2016, 06:39:48 PM »
I've been working on an AMerican mild for the last couple years.  A couple tips based on what I've learned...I'd lose the invert.  It will thin what will already be a thin beer.  I'd use at least 50% of your malt as Munich.  That got me the closest I've been.  If you use 1968, will it really be American (you mentioned that)?  My quest is to use only American ingredients, so I've been using WY1450.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline Phil_M

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Re: Need a little advice...
« Reply #3 on: February 29, 2016, 06:41:24 PM »
Google "Lyle's Golden Syrup" and you can find several sources, including Amazon. I've even seen it in my local grocery store from time to time.

Lyle's is No. 1 invert sugar (treacle), I'll be adding blackstrap molasses to it using the methods detailed in the link below to make invert No. 2.

http://www.unholymess.com/blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert

If I could find brewer's caramel for a reasonable price, I'd use it too, but since the jury is still out on it adding any flavor I'll just let this be a pale mild.

Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline Phil_M

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Re: Need a little advice...
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2016, 06:52:06 PM »
I've been working on an AMerican mild for the last couple years.  A couple tips based on what I've learned...I'd lose the invert.  It will thin what will already be a thin beer.  I'd use at least 50% of your malt as Munich.  That got me the closest I've been.  If you use 1968, will it really be American (you mentioned that)?  My quest is to use only American ingredients, so I've been using WY1450.

That's my thought on the invert as well. I've used it in a 3.8-4%ish bitter before, and while the beer was thin, I didn't think it too thin. Nobody at Thanksgiving mentioned it either, and the keg was drained.

 However, that was an extract batch, so I see it as an apples to oranges comparison to this beer. Maybe the 3-hour boil will do something to increase mouthfeel? I figure it's worth a try to find out.

1450 was on my list, really enjoyed that in my recent brown ale. Really, I saw 1968 in Patinson's recipe and remembered I wanted to try that yeast again.  I don't think I gave it a fair shake in the past when I've used it, and have thought about using it in a lighter beer to try and see how much that yeast "does" for a beer.

I'll likely use 1450 next time around. May even use it this time around if the slurry from the brown hasn't gone off sitting under an inch of beer in my carboy. (Hasn't been refrigerated.)
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 06:55:52 PM by Phil_M »
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline erockrph

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Re: Need a little advice...
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2016, 07:15:39 PM »
If I could find brewer's caramel for a reasonable price, I'd use it too, but since the jury is still out on it adding any flavor I'll just let this be a pale mild.
I used enough brewer's caramel to turn Pivo Pils into a dark schwarzbier, and didn't pick up a lick of flavor. I'd consider it a colorant only.

As far as the flavor of your beer goes, I'd look for American Pale Ale malt for your base if that's an option at this point. That should at least be a bit more flavorful than regular 2-row pale malt.

For 1968, I like 68F for fermentation. For a small beer like this I could be done in a matter of days, so I'd start rousing and bumping the temperature 3 or 4 days in.

What I think really lets English beers to get away with sugar in small beers is the low carbonation level. If you plan on carbonating this like an American ale (in the 2.5 volume range) and serve it ice cold, then it will certainly seem watery. If you serve it like an English/cask ale - a bit warmer and in the 1.8-2 volume range, then you can probably get away with it.
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Offline euge

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Re: Need a little advice...
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2016, 07:26:20 PM »
Brewer's caramel is in Kristen's comments but not in the list.
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Offline Phil_M

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Re: Need a little advice...
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2016, 07:31:16 PM »
55oF with 1.8 vols has been my default for the vast majority of my beers, as I'm really just not a fan of a ton of carbonation. Lagers would be a notable exception to that rule, but I've never brewed one.

I'll be using Briess Pale Ale malt for the base-bought a 50-lb bag of it before I'd read that there were more flavorful options out there. That being said, unless there's an outcry I'll still use at least a pound or two of Munich.

I'm hoping to develop a mild of some form for Thanksgiving this year, so this will be the first run of that recipe. I might even try to serve the final Thanksgiving beer from a pin, or a keg rigged to run "cask style."
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline kramerog

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Re: Need a little advice...
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2016, 07:38:52 PM »
Google "Lyle's Golden Syrup" and you can find several sources, including Amazon. I've even seen it in my local grocery store from time to time.

Lyle's is No. 1 invert sugar (treacle), I'll be adding blackstrap molasses to it using the methods detailed in the link below to make invert No. 2.

http://www.unholymess.com/blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert

If I could find brewer's caramel for a reasonable price, I'd use it too, but since the jury is still out on it adding any flavor I'll just let this be a pale mild.

Looks like we have been looking at the same sources. 

I attempted to make invert no. 2 using unholymess' instructions and don't think the result was satisfactory, although it is really hard to say definitively because I can't get my hands on invert no. 2 to make a direct comparison.  I initially tried to cooking the sugar syrup at 240 F, but got very little color despite cooking for over 3 hours.  I think the issue is that I used mildy alkaline water which reduced the pH below 3.  I then tried adding the blackstrap molasses, ultimately doubling the amount of Golden Barrel blackstrap molasses to get to the desired color.  Adding blackstrap molasses doesn't make much sense to me because mixing 1 part caramel 40 L and 1 part caramel 80 L doesn't result in 2 parts caramel 60 L.  Anyway that's my 2 cents.

Good luck. 

Offline Phil_M

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Re: Need a little advice...
« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2016, 07:46:13 PM »
I think the theory with adding some blackstrap back into the golden syrup is that you're basically adding more of the minerals/flavor found in sugar without adding more sucrose. While I'm adept at candymaking I won't want to add making a batch of syrup to my brew day - especially considering there's already the concern that the beer may be too thin. I'll use what I have this time around, evaluate, and go from there. I'd wager I'll either remove the sugar entirely or find that the "doctored up" invert No. 1 is fine.
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline pete b

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Re: Need a little advice...
« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2016, 08:58:17 PM »
I would use at least 20% munich and lose the sugar if it were me.
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Offline euge

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Re: Need a little advice...
« Reply #11 on: February 29, 2016, 09:44:34 PM »
Guess at first I didn't realize that Brewer's caramel is synonymous with invert syrup. Or had forgotten.

Don't be afraid to try make this; and make it light or dark to your preference. Take it slow and even though it'll be black as coal it won't be burnt. Going for dark sugar, if you take it past hard crack once cooled it needs to be dissolved into some water to make a syrup. Throwing chunks into the boil ends up with a half dissolved candy mess on the bottom of the kettle.

 
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Offline Phil_M

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Re: Need a little advice...
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2016, 09:55:06 PM »
Guess at first I didn't realize that Brewer's caramel is synonymous with invert syrup. Or had forgotten.

Don't be afraid to try make this; and make it light or dark to your preference. Take it slow and even though it'll be black as coal it won't be burnt. Going for dark sugar, if you take it past hard crack once cooled it needs to be dissolved into some water to make a syrup. Throwing chunks into the boil ends up with a half dissolved candy mess on the bottom of the kettle.

It is? I thought "caramel colourant" or "Brewer's Caramel" was sugar that was treated in the presence of ammonia? Or is my chemistry off?
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Online dmtaylor

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Re: Need a little advice...
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2016, 10:01:11 PM »
I disagree that American 2-row is not flavorful.  It's more yummy than people give it credit for.  No Munich malt should be necessary, especially if you want to keep this recipe more or less American.

I'd mash at about 156 F for just 20-30 minutes, then heat up immediately.  Mash time is going to limit fermentability more than temperature actually, so you could mash lower if you wanted, but definitely limit the mash TIME if you want a decent finishing gravity, body & mouthfeel.  Same advice goes to you, Denny -- try and see.  You might even still get away with using simple sugars if you mash super short, just 20 minutes.

I'd ferment in the 60s, maybe 67 F, for a day or two, then up to 72-ish for several days for a diacetyl rest.

Good luck!
Dave

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Offline euge

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Re: Need a little advice...
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2016, 10:24:57 PM »
Guess at first I didn't realize that Brewer's caramel is synonymous with invert syrup. Or had forgotten.

Don't be afraid to try make this; and make it light or dark to your preference. Take it slow and even though it'll be black as coal it won't be burnt. Going for dark sugar, if you take it past hard crack once cooled it needs to be dissolved into some water to make a syrup. Throwing chunks into the boil ends up with a half dissolved candy mess on the bottom of the kettle.

It is? I thought "caramel colourant" or "Brewer's Caramel" was sugar that was treated in the presence of ammonia? Or is my chemistry off?

Well invert is with an acid IIRC. Not sure about the caramel or darker stuff. I want to say some sodium bicarbonate was used when I last made it.

But it's been 9 years since I made any and the methods in the links vs the recipe have me a bit confused.
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. -Richard P. Feynman

Laws are spider-webs, which catch the little flies, but cannot hold the big ones. -Anacharsis