Author Topic: fining with gelatin-impact or not on head  (Read 5214 times)

Offline neddles

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Re: fining with gelatin-impact or not on head
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2016, 09:10:34 pm »
I haven't really noticed fining with gelatin to strip my head retention, but it seems to strip the beer of some body. I think said in the other thread that it would have potential to strip the head, and I guess I still agree with that. But perhaps I'm using too high of a dosage? Think I was using 1 tablespoon in 6oz of water or something like that and heating to 160F or so.
I see people using a fair bit more at times but I have had a lot of success with 1/2t. dissolved in 1/3c. water and heated to about 155F. Add it to the beer as cold as you can get it (33-34F here) and wait 2-3 days. Pull a cloudy pint or so and then...

Notice the head. No retention problems at all. Just very uniform bubbles and not merengue-like.

Offline Footballandhops

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Re: fining with gelatin-impact or not on head
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2016, 09:22:53 pm »
My anecdotal observations in my kegged home brew is that since I've been fining with gelatin, I have noticed an increase in head retention
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Offline MDixon

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Re: fining with gelatin-impact or not on head
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2016, 05:52:13 am »
Never noticed any particular difference in batches fined with gelatin and those which were not. If someone does want to experiment the procedure should be to ferment a single batch, split into two and then fine one.
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Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: fining with gelatin-impact or not on head
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2016, 06:58:10 am »
Never noticed any particular difference in batches fined with gelatin and those which were not. If someone does want to experiment the procedure should be to ferment a single batch, split into two and then fine one.

exactly -that's the parameter I suggested.
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Offline beersk

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Re: fining with gelatin-impact or not on head
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2016, 07:31:16 am »
I haven't really noticed fining with gelatin to strip my head retention, but it seems to strip the beer of some body. I think said in the other thread that it would have potential to strip the head, and I guess I still agree with that. But perhaps I'm using too high of a dosage? Think I was using 1 tablespoon in 6oz of water or something like that and heating to 160F or so.
I see people using a fair bit more at times but I have had a lot of success with 1/2t. dissolved in 1/3c. water and heated to about 155F. Add it to the beer as cold as you can get it (33-34F here) and wait 2-3 days. Pull a cloudy pint or so and then...

Notice the head. No retention problems at all. Just very uniform bubbles and not merengue-like.
I'm going to try a smaller dosage on a Kolsch I'm brewing soon. Only half a teaspoon huh? Hmmm It's worth a shot. Sounds better than 1 tablespoon.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: fining with gelatin-impact or not on head
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2016, 07:35:46 am »
I wonder about the dose of gelatin, too. I use a tsp and honestly don't notice any effect to foam, but do notice a slight loss of late hop character (which I account for by bumping up hop amounts where needed.). I plan to do a split batch to test out soon.
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Re: fining with gelatin-impact or not on head
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2016, 07:39:33 am »
I wonder about the dose of gelatin, too. I use a tsp and honestly don't notice any effect to foam, but do notice a slight loss of late hop character (which I account for by bumping up hop amounts where needed.). I plan to do a split batch to test out soon.

was just recently talking/thinking about that very thing Jon. The question is-can you over fine a beer to its detriment? whirlfloc, then gelatin or other, whats the threshold to drop proteins, polyphenols, etc and NOT impact something in the beer ....that's what I'd like to evaluate and understand better. mostly just for my own understanding and curiosity.

EDIT: here's something I read on BYO: "Removing all the proteins from your wort or beer is not advisable.  A beer without any proteins would be bland and lack a head. Just as there are haze-forming proteins, there are essential head-forming proteins. Even though Irish moss and silica gel preferentially remove haze forming proteins, they can also remove foam-active proteins. Any fining procedure needs to strike a balance between removing enough protein to reduce haze, without removing so much protein that foam stability and mouthfeel
is affected. "
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 07:44:42 am by Wort-H.O.G. »
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: fining with gelatin-impact or not on head
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2016, 07:54:06 am »
I wonder about the dose of gelatin, too. I use a tsp and honestly don't notice any effect to foam, but do notice a slight loss of late hop character (which I account for by bumping up hop amounts where needed.). I plan to do a split batch to test out soon.

was just recently talking/thinking about that very thing Jon. The question is-can you over fine a beer to its detriment? whirlfloc, then gelatin or other, whats the threshold to drop proteins, polyphenols, etc and NOT impact something in the beer ....that's what I'd like to evaluate and understand better. mostly just for my own understanding and curiosity.

EDIT: here's something I read on BYO: "Removing all the proteins from your wort or beer is not advisable.  A beer without any proteins would be bland and lack a head. Just as there are haze-forming proteins, there are essential head-forming proteins. Even though Irish moss and silica gel preferentially remove haze forming proteins, they can also remove foam-active proteins. Any fining procedure needs to strike a balance between removing enough protein to reduce haze, without removing so much protein that foam stability and mouthfeel
is affected. "



Yeah, I think there's definitely a threshold. I remember Keith posted that even using too much whirlfloc could affect head retention. I always used a whole one for convenience but I backed off to a half tab (1 tab is supposedly good for 12 gallons of beer). I may back off a bit on the gelatin incrementally - the bare minimum that gets the beer clear is all you need anyway. I don't use it on every style as is.
Jon H.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: fining with gelatin-impact or not on head
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2016, 07:55:56 am »
I wonder about the dose of gelatin, too. I use a tsp and honestly don't notice any effect to foam, but do notice a slight loss of late hop character (which I account for by bumping up hop amounts where needed.). I plan to do a split batch to test out soon.

was just recently talking/thinking about that very thing Jon. The question is-can you over fine a beer to its detriment? whirlfloc, then gelatin or other, whats the threshold to drop proteins, polyphenols, etc and NOT impact something in the beer ....that's what I'd like to evaluate and understand better. mostly just for my own understanding and curiosity.

EDIT: here's something I read on BYO: "Removing all the proteins from your wort or beer is not advisable.  A beer without any proteins would be bland and lack a head. Just as there are haze-forming proteins, there are essential head-forming proteins. Even though Irish moss and silica gel preferentially remove haze forming proteins, they can also remove foam-active proteins. Any fining procedure needs to strike a balance between removing enough protein to reduce haze, without removing so much protein that foam stability and mouthfeel
is affected. "


Yeah, I think there's definitely a threshold. I remember Keith posted that even using too much whirlfloc could affect head retention. I always used a whole one for convenience but I backed off to a half tab (1 tab is supposedly good for 12 gallons of beer). I may back off a bit on the gelatin incrementally - the bare minimum that gets the beer clear is all you need anyway. I don't use it on every style as is.

1/2 whirlfloc at last 10 minutes is what I use also.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
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Ger Pils
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Offline beersk

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Re: fining with gelatin-impact or not on head
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2016, 08:08:26 am »
Here's a couple that were fined with gelatin, head was not affected, but my theory still stands that you can over-fine the beer and lose out on body and mouth feel. I was using 1T in 200mL of water heated to 155-165F in a mason jar. The Oktoberfest was killer, but maybe lost out on body because of the finings. The Dort was too sweet. Troubleshooting that with my light lagers...

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« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 08:13:57 am by beersk »
Jesse

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: fining with gelatin-impact or not on head
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2016, 08:25:02 am »
Foam looks terrific. How much gelatin do you use out of curiosity?


Edit - Sorry didn't see it, 1 tbsp?
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Offline beersk

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Re: fining with gelatin-impact or not on head
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2016, 08:26:39 am »
Yeah 1 tablespoon, which seems like a lot every time I do it. I plan to scale it back, starting with 1/2 teaspoon and definitely using RO water.
Jesse

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: fining with gelatin-impact or not on head
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2016, 08:28:59 am »
I can vouch that 1 tsp clears beer nicely, and I may scale back a tad, to see where the clarity falls off. I think 1 tsp is a non-issue, except on beers with a lot of late hop character. I don't notice a loss of body. Still want to try less though.
Jon H.

Offline beersk

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Re: fining with gelatin-impact or not on head
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2016, 08:42:28 am »
I can vouch that 1 tsp clears beer nicely, and I may scale back a tad, to see where the clarity falls off. I think 1 tsp is a non-issue, except on beers with a lot of late hop character. I don't notice a loss of body. Still want to try less though.
Yeah, I was using triple the amount you use. There could be something to that...
Jesse

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: fining with gelatin-impact or not on head
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2016, 08:49:01 am »

Yeah 1 tablespoon, which seems like a lot every time I do it. I plan to scale it back, starting with 1/2 teaspoon and definitely using RO water.

Any kettle fining Jesse?


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Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest