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Author Topic: ammonia caramel  (Read 6213 times)

Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: ammonia caramel
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2016, 09:32:05 am »
This is from one of the generic brand of the largest Belgian brew website: https://www.brouwland.com/content/docs/007/007%20Suikers/007.086.2-007.089.6_SPEC_EN_Candy%20syrup%20liquid%20dark.pdf
E150c is ammonia caramel.

This is from Castle: http://www.castlemalting.com/Publications/SugarProducts/CandimicLightFT_en.pdf - no mention of ammonia caramel
Frank P.

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Offline denny

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Re: ammonia caramel
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2016, 09:36:09 am »
From CSI (The products are great but keep in mind their recipes and ingredients are proprietary):

"Our syrups are made using only food grade natural ingredients and traditional thermal methods."

CSI discreetly tells people that their syrups are of higher quality than continental syrups so I would assume that if a company like Candico is not using ammonia based compounds, than CSI probably isn't either.


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I'm gonna contact someone I know at candisyrup.com and ask them if they'd like to comment.
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RPIScotty

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Re: ammonia caramel
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2016, 09:38:08 am »

This is from one of the generic brand of the largest Belgian brew website: https://www.brouwland.com/content/docs/007/007%20Suikers/007.086.2-007.089.6_SPEC_EN_Candy%20syrup%20liquid%20dark.pdf
E150c is ammonia caramel.

This is from Castle: http://www.castlemalting.com/Publications/SugarProducts/CandimicLightFT_en.pdf - no mention of ammonia caramel

To answer your OP: I'd say No and No.


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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: ammonia caramel
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2016, 02:36:58 pm »
From CSI (The products are great but keep in mind their recipes and ingredients are proprietary):

"Our syrups are made using only food grade natural ingredients and traditional thermal methods."

CSI discreetly tells people that their syrups are of higher quality than continental syrups so I would assume that if a company like Candico is not using ammonia based compounds, than CSI probably isn't either.


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I'm gonna contact someone I know at candisyrup.com and ask them if they'd like to comment.

I feel like I am in a Foodbabe discussion. If they can give data on this, great.

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Offline denny

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Re: ammonia caramel
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2016, 03:31:28 pm »
From CSI (The products are great but keep in mind their recipes and ingredients are proprietary):

"Our syrups are made using only food grade natural ingredients and traditional thermal methods."

CSI discreetly tells people that their syrups are of higher quality than continental syrups so I would assume that if a company like Candico is not using ammonia based compounds, than CSI probably isn't either.


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I'm gonna contact someone I know at candisyrup.com and ask them if they'd like to comment.

I feel like I am in a Foodbabe discussion. If they can give data on this, great.

Agreed!  Sent an email.  We'll see if he has time to respond.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: ammonia caramel
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2016, 03:37:53 pm »
I feel like I am in a Foodbabe discussion. If they can give data on this, great.

And I don't even know whether it's good or bad if the stuff is in it or not :(
Frank P.

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Offline unclebrazzie

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Re: ammonia caramel
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2016, 02:04:07 am »
First off: the gist of things is that 180c is a suspected carcinogen. If it were a confirmed carcinogen, it wouldn't be an ingredient in food. One hopes.
Just saying it won't kill you, unless you gorge yourself on it. In which case you probably get what you deserve.

Secondly: what's the aim of using those syrups? Flavour? Color? Both?
Reason I'm asking is this: if it's just color you're after, make your own caramel, syrup or chunks, and add to the wort until you get the color you want. Easy peasy but not at all scientific unless you have some SRM-ing equipment (which I'm guessing you don't but go ahead and surprise the pants right off me).
That whole "You're gonna lose if you don't use it" thing is just someone yanking your chain. Yes, you need good quality ingredients, but I'd wager any syrup/caramel you make yourself will dramatically outshine any commercially available concoction. It's just impractical, and messy, and it generates smoke and whatnot, so a prepaid package sounds more appealing, is all.

So: what part does it play in the recipe? Once you get that sorted out, the path will illuminate itself.

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Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: ammonia caramel
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2016, 02:44:55 am »
So: what part does it play in the recipe? Once you get that sorted out, the path will illuminate itself.

It will provide exactly 15 EBC plus the flavor of raisins and dried plums in a Rochefort 4 recipe that will earn me a shiny star on the Homebrewers Boulevard Walk Of Fame.
Frank P.

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RPIScotty

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ammonia caramel
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2016, 07:42:40 am »
...but I'd wager any syrup/caramel you make yourself will dramatically outshine any commercially available concoction. It's just impractical, and messy, and it generates smoke and whatnot, so a prepaid package sounds more appealing, is all.

I disagree, and here is why:

I can get any of the popular, commercially available and outstanding Candi syrup products out there for 6.95 or less per lb.

Factor in sourcing your own ingredients, chemicals needed and time spent doing trial and error experiments for the right combinations, coupled with the consistently and repeatability issues of making your own, and buying commercially far outshines making your own. And that fails to even consider the mess as you described above.

The DIY ethos has a place and is useful in many hobbies so long as you weigh the benefits/rewards against the material, time and effort expenditures against one another.

Hype or no hype, the CSI products are outstanding and consistent.

Also, despite CSIs gingerly veiled criticism, other manufacturers (Candico/darkcandi.com) are producing delicious syrups/sugars as well.

Ultimately one has to weigh the benefits vs labor for themselves. I'll take a consistent, quality, off the shelf alternative every time.

Circling all the way back to the OP:

Can anyone here confirm that a good quality candi sirup for brewing needs to contain ammonia caramel (I think it fixes the color or something like that). And does D-180 contain it?

I would say no. I can't imagine that the color of these syrups is being achieved through the use of a caramel coloring additive and I very highly doubt that if they did that the addition would constitute a necessary or required element of a good quality syrup.

I'm always ready to be proved wrong but I feel confident on this.
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« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 07:50:09 am by RPIScotty »

Offline Stevie

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Re: ammonia caramel
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2016, 07:47:58 am »
Can't always factor time into the cost of a hobby. If this were he case, a 5 gallon batch runs over $200 by the time all labor hours are included.

That said, I'm not making my own Candi syrup either.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: ammonia caramel
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2016, 08:03:31 am »
I'd wager if I had a year I couldn't make something as good as the CSI syrups. And that's aside from the time/expense argument. Those are killer syrups.
Jon H.

RPIScotty

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Re: ammonia caramel
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2016, 08:06:25 am »
I only mentioned time effort expenditure because making your own syrup requires a level of trial and error that in my opinion differs from that of brew sessions.

Even if you remove that element, you guys are totally right: I just don't think it's worth it either.

If someone offers me a product that is outstanding and at or below the cost of me making myself, I can't see taking the time to make my own.



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Offline denny

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Re: ammonia caramel
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2016, 08:45:59 am »
First off: the gist of things is that 180c is a suspected carcinogen. If it were a confirmed carcinogen, it wouldn't be an ingredient in food. One hopes.
Just saying it won't kill you, unless you gorge yourself on it. In which case you probably get what you deserve.

Secondly: what's the aim of using those syrups? Flavour? Color? Both?
Reason I'm asking is this: if it's just color you're after, make your own caramel, syrup or chunks, and add to the wort until you get the color you want. Easy peasy but not at all scientific unless you have some SRM-ing equipment (which I'm guessing you don't but go ahead and surprise the pants right off me).
That whole "You're gonna lose if you don't use it" thing is just someone yanking your chain. Yes, you need good quality ingredients, but I'd wager any syrup/caramel you make yourself will dramatically outshine any commercially available concoction. It's just impractical, and messy, and it generates smoke and whatnot, so a prepaid package sounds more appealing, is all.

So: what part does it play in the recipe? Once you get that sorted out, the path will illuminate itself.

Flavor, without a doubt.  None of my darker Belgian styles tasted right until I started using it.  And you're dead wrong about homemade syrups being better than the commercial ones.  Have you ever tried them?
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: ammonia caramel
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2016, 09:14:03 am »
First off: the gist of things is that 180c is a suspected carcinogen. If it were a confirmed carcinogen, it wouldn't be an ingredient in food. One hopes.
Just saying it won't kill you, unless you gorge yourself on it. In which case you probably get what you deserve.

Secondly: what's the aim of using those syrups? Flavour? Color? Both?
Reason I'm asking is this: if it's just color you're after, make your own caramel, syrup or chunks, and add to the wort until you get the color you want. Easy peasy but not at all scientific unless you have some SRM-ing equipment (which I'm guessing you don't but go ahead and surprise the pants right off me).
That whole "You're gonna lose if you don't use it" thing is just someone yanking your chain. Yes, you need good quality ingredients, but I'd wager any syrup/caramel you make yourself will dramatically outshine any commercially available concoction. It's just impractical, and messy, and it generates smoke and whatnot, so a prepaid package sounds more appealing, is all.

So: what part does it play in the recipe? Once you get that sorted out, the path will illuminate itself.

I might agree with you if the purpose of a candy syrup is color and/or a general caramel flavor. That's relatively easy if you're really talking about making brewer's caramel (common to older English recipes) rather than the candy syrups frequently used in Trappist/abbey styles. The flavor of the candy syrups is completely different and miles superior for those Belgian styles. I have experimented with every supposed technique to make candy syrups online and while I could grab one or two flavor components they were always lacking the richness and complexity of the commercial candy syrups.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: ammonia caramel
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2016, 12:05:22 pm »
If you could reliably make a Candi Syrup at home that is better than the commercial stuff, then we'd all be doing it IMO. I've never seen any recipes that even claim to be as good as the real thing on a repeatable basis, so it doesn't really seem worth my time. If someone stumbles on a formula that makes a beer as good as I can make with the CSI stuff, then I'll be buying a candy thermometer the next day.

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