Author Topic: BJCP Qued Judging  (Read 1341 times)

Offline klickitat jim

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BJCP Qued Judging
« on: March 08, 2016, 05:35:19 AM »
Just a couple questions. I thought about PMing Steve, but decided that more folks might gain knowledge if it was out in the open. So, I've judged with the qued method before and I understand how it works up to the point of mini bos. Since there are multiple teams judging the flight, how do they determine which beers move on to mini bos. I vaguely recall that our table moved a couple on to mini bos. But I was thinking that it was possible and maybe likely that other tablee saw much better beers. Then I thought, what if each table moved 3 beers onto mini bos, well its possible 1st 2nd and 3rd could all come from one table. But if they only moved two on, the 3rd place beer could get dropper from mini bos. It crossed my mind that maybe they use scores to pick for instance the top 6. But how do you know that every table scores similarly?

So, here ya go someone. How does BJCP Qued Judging work when it comes to mini bos?

Offline dbeechum

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Re: BJCP Qued Judging
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2016, 06:22:10 AM »
Usually most teams will just look at the number of beers they had per flight and try and determine what are their strongest beers. Most of the time it's easy to come up with your top 3. Then the legs come together and see if they have a reasonable total and go from there.

I've never seen anything more formal setup for it. Just seems to work out.
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Offline AmandaK

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Re: BJCP Qued Judging
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2016, 01:41:38 PM »
When in the position to tell people what to do (e.g. Judge Coordinator or ranking/head judge), I advise on sending any beer that that judge pair believes could be worthy of a medal. If it is crappy, it gets kicked immediately. If it's better than the other beers the other judges sent, it gets a medal.

Most of the time, it is 2 beers sent under that "system". Sometimes 3. Sometimes 1. As long as the best beers make it to mini-BOS, I'm a happy camper.

Notice how I said nothing of scores.  ;) BUT - if there are 38-39pt beers not going to mini-BOS, then we should talk with those judges.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 01:43:17 PM by AmandaK »
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: BJCP Qued Judging
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2016, 01:46:26 PM »
When in the position to tell people what to do (e.g. Judge Coordinator or ranking/head judge), I advise on sending any beer that that judge pair believes could be worthy of a medal. If it is crappy, it gets kicked immediately. If it's better than the other beers the other judges sent, it gets a medal.

Most of the time, it is 2 beers sent under that "system". Sometimes 3. Sometimes 1. As long as the best beers make it to mini-BOS, I'm a happy camper.


That's a fair way to do it, Amanda.
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Offline MDixon

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Re: BJCP Qued Judging
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2016, 01:47:27 PM »
I've sent three to the mini-BOS and I've sent none. Just this past weekend we sent one to the mini-BOS in one flight and two in a different mini-BOS flight.

The worst thing I ever saw was a judge send FOUR beers to the mini-BOS. What a colossal waste of time. Never more than three, EVER. In their defense...oh nevermind, it was just plain stupid!
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Offline AmandaK

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Re: BJCP Qued Judging
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2016, 01:54:54 PM »
I've sent three to the mini-BOS and I've sent none. Just this past weekend we sent one to the mini-BOS in one flight and two in a different mini-BOS flight.

The worst thing I ever saw was a judge send FOUR beers to the mini-BOS. What a colossal waste of time. Never more than three, EVER. In their defense...oh nevermind, it was just plain stupid!
What's the hangup with the # of beers? I mean, they could have had all of the great beers. Plus, if it's crappy, just dump it as soon as you all smell it. Mini-BOS takes but like 5-10 minutes, less of it's a small flight.

Legitimately curious.
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Offline MDixon

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Re: BJCP Qued Judging
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2016, 03:07:47 PM »
So in this competition the awards are 1st, 2nd, 3rd, without a mini-BOS they would have had to decide which beer was fourth and out. Since there can be only three, only three should EVER advance to mini-BOS in this situation. If we are giving fourth place, fifth place...eighth place, then advance that many beers, but because it is a situation involving the top three only three should advance otherwise it is a waste of time, cups, etc.

IMHO this judge was great at evaluating beers, slow, but great. They were lousy as a lead judge and I hope I never end up on a panel with them again unless they have learned to make a decision.

Of course if I ever get my written up enough to average 90 instead of a lousy 89 I'll most likely be the highest ranking judge on the panel so it won't matter. ;)
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Offline kramerog

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Re: BJCP Qued Judging
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2016, 03:20:19 PM »
As a general rule, I'm all for limiting the number of beers a panel puts through to the next round to 3 because judges may have to taste another session, drive home, etc.  But there are exceptions particularly if there is a large difference in opinion about the quality of the fourth beer, the other panel(s) put through very few beers, etc.

Edit: I've seen my panel's top 3 be reshuffled in the mini-BOS so a panel's number 4 could be judged higher, but the case has to be made for letting in the fourth.

Offline udubdawg

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Re: BJCP Qued Judging
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2016, 05:38:34 PM »
for the record, I don't agree with Mike, and the others who have had a fit when someone sent four.

Me?  No, I'm not sending 4.  But I'm a Grandmaster Judge.  I'm supposed to be the expert at the table.

I just have a hard time understanding the problem. 

I have had high ranking judges tell me I MUST push three, because maybe my third best beer is the third best overall.  Dude...Again, GM here.  If we cannot trust me when I say that our second best beer was a 21 and not medal worthy, then why are we bothering with a competition?!?

On the same note, I've had PLENTY of times where one team was very inexperienced.  I cannot judge all the beers, so if they have a hard time deciding between beers then I'll tell them to go ahead and push all 4.  I and the other lead judges can get through them quickly. 

Just judged with some newbies to cider, who pushed a loaded-with-vanilla C1A entry to mini-bos.  C'mon.  People should have more of a problem with THAT than if they had pushed 4.  An extra entry adds a minute to my mini-BOS.  Someone not sending the "your schwarzbier needs to be richer, more body, and more roast" to mini-BOS may rob someone of a medal.

Give the best beers a chance, and get the round over with as quickly and as smoothly as possible.  Not rocket surgery.

/soapbox.

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Offline mabrungard

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Re: BJCP Qued Judging
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2016, 05:45:41 PM »
There are only 3 places, so it makes no sense to push 4 to MBOS. However, I have pushed 3 to MBOS and all 3 of them medaled. Its rare, but maybe you are the lucky one that judged the best beers in the entire flight. What is more pathetic is when you have no beers that you want to push, but push one anyhow. Its sad, but maybe your best poor beer is still better than the other team's beers.
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Offline AmandaK

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Re: BJCP Qued Judging
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2016, 06:35:45 PM »
I'm of the mind to agree with Michael and disagree with Dixon. I've seen too many 'higher up' judges get really persnickety when it comes to the # of beers sent per judge pair. I don't think I'll ever see the point in being rigid about it.

If the "worst thing" was that an inexperienced judge pair sent 4 beers, then it'll be the best comp I've ever been to. ;) It's really no big deal to me as long as the beers that potentially deserve a medal have a shot at it.

Like Michael said (although I'm only a lowly master), would I personally send 4? No. But does that mean that it's a "colossal waste of time"? Nope. Would I rather give 30-60 seconds to a 4th beer that may end up being better than the 2nd or 3rd beer an inexperienced group sent? Sure!

Someone not sending the "your schwarzbier needs to be richer, more body, and more roast" to mini-BOS may rob someone of a medal.

Exactly. Especially when we have so many newer judges that don't know what they're doing... yet.


FWIW, in our area we have a TON of new judges. Our last large comp had 75 judges. 28 of those became BJCP judges in the past year. I do not expect them to know what they are doing yet. But I will surely not let an entry that deserves a shot at a medal not get a shot because of some rigid #'s rule.
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Offline toby

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Re: BJCP Qued Judging
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2016, 10:28:10 PM »
Just a couple questions. I thought about PMing Steve, but decided that more folks might gain knowledge if it was out in the open. So, I've judged with the qued method before and I understand how it works up to the point of mini bos. Since there are multiple teams judging the flight, how do they determine which beers move on to mini bos. I vaguely recall that our table moved a couple on to mini bos. But I was thinking that it was possible and maybe likely that other tablee saw much better beers. Then I thought, what if each table moved 3 beers onto mini bos, well its possible 1st 2nd and 3rd could all come from one table. But if they only moved two on, the 3rd place beer could get dropper from mini bos. It crossed my mind that maybe they use scores to pick for instance the top 6. But how do you know that every table scores similarly?

So, here ya go someone. How does BJCP Qued Judging work when it comes to mini bos?

Trick question?  It's generally going to be up to the organizer in most cases.  They're going to know how many entries they have in each medal category total and how many assigned to each flight.  They should be letting the judges know when they sit for their flight(s) how many each pair should/can push.  Most organizers that I like will give the judges a little discretion (e.g. push 1-3 depending on overall flight quality).  But ultimately their job as an organizer is to keep the mini-BOS manageable for the judges who will be having to sort it out.  In a category of 24 entries, I'm going to try to split into 3 flights and get the judges to push 1 or 2 to keep mini-BOS in the 6 or less range.  But ultimately my goal is to have them push the beers that are worthy of winning a medal, so the particulars of the competition make a difference.

Offline MDixon

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Re: BJCP Qued Judging
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2016, 11:55:54 PM »
I would suggest a max of three per team if I was an organizer/judge director. You never know when the three you push might be the best of the bunch.
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: BJCP Qued Judging
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2016, 07:39:12 AM »
Good stuff guys. No more than 3 makes perfect sense on that level. I also agree with no pushing beers that aren't medal worthy. In home brew comps, especially smaller ones, that's less of a worry since the public won't be shopping for that beer just because it got a medal. In pro comps you do have to consider the integrity of the competition and what it stands for. I could see some remote circumstances where 4 might get pushed and I wouldn't freak out because of it. You could have a couple beers tied for 3rd and just push them to get a second opinion.

The question is how many tables... if it's a flight of 180 with ten tables, are you wanting to do a 30-40 beer mini bos? Probably not

Offline MDixon

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Re: BJCP Qued Judging
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2016, 03:58:05 PM »
I believe the biggest flight I have seen was 54 entries and at the time we split it over five judge teams. It still was 15 beers to have to sort through by five judges.
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