Author Topic: WY3787 Attenuation  (Read 3313 times)

RPIScotty

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Re: WY3787 Attenuation
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2016, 07:57:24 PM »


You kind of touched on my premise.

As an example, let's discuss fermentation of Chimay Premiere (from pg. 37 of BLAM). I understand that the differences in scale play a role but let's have a thought experiment:

Primary: 4 days

Secondary (i.e. Cold conditioning): 3 days at 32°F

Temp rises fairly high during primary. They centrifuge it twice (after primary and cold conditioning) dose it with sugar and yeast and then bottle. Total time is about 1-1.5 weeks until bottled.

Chimay makes great beers and granted, they have great fermentation practices, but they don't take that long to ferment and package. I'm thinking that the travel time overseas helps condition and clean up the beers.

What do you guys think?

I don't think it does.  My turnaround on Belgian beers can be very quick and they don't exhibit any signs of needing more time.
can you elaborate on your process Denny?

Offline denny

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Re: WY3787 Attenuation
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2016, 07:59:44 PM »


You kind of touched on my premise.

As an example, let's discuss fermentation of Chimay Premiere (from pg. 37 of BLAM). I understand that the differences in scale play a role but let's have a thought experiment:

Primary: 4 days

Secondary (i.e. Cold conditioning): 3 days at 32°F

Temp rises fairly high during primary. They centrifuge it twice (after primary and cold conditioning) dose it with sugar and yeast and then bottle. Total time is about 1-1.5 weeks until bottled.

Chimay makes great beers and granted, they have great fermentation practices, but they don't take that long to ferment and package. I'm thinking that the travel time overseas helps condition and clean up the beers.

What do you guys think?

I don't think it does.  My turnaround on Belgian beers can be very quick and they don't exhibit any signs of needing more time.
can you elaborate on your process Denny?

Very close to the Chimay schedule.  4-7 days at 63.  Whenever I reach or get close to my expected FG, I jack the temp to 70-72.  I leave it there until I get the FG I expect, then crash to 33 for 3-5 days and keg.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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RPIScotty

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WY3787 Attenuation
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2016, 08:02:28 PM »
I think you'd really have to have a good handle on how your yeast behaves if you're going to significantly shorten the time in primary both in terms of flavor profile and in terms of leaving fermentable sugars when crashing. Being able to bottle condition a not fully attenuated (or cleaned up) beer and getting consistent 3.0 vol. CO2 sounds tricky at the homebrew level. Not saying it couldn't work but I'm not sure if the payoff is worth the effort. If you feel that this processing technique is what gives a beer a particular flavor profile you like then maybe it's worth trying out. If you do, keep us informed, I'd love to hear how it turned out.

I think there is a Δ here between my explanation and your interpretation. 

I'm assuming the beer is at its terminal gravity.

My beer is done fermenting. Does that change your response at all?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 08:05:19 PM by RPIScotty »

RPIScotty

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Re: WY3787 Attenuation
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2016, 08:04:15 PM »



You kind of touched on my premise.

As an example, let's discuss fermentation of Chimay Premiere (from pg. 37 of BLAM). I understand that the differences in scale play a role but let's have a thought experiment:

Primary: 4 days

Secondary (i.e. Cold conditioning): 3 days at 32°F

Temp rises fairly high during primary. They centrifuge it twice (after primary and cold conditioning) dose it with sugar and yeast and then bottle. Total time is about 1-1.5 weeks until bottled.

Chimay makes great beers and granted, they have great fermentation practices, but they don't take that long to ferment and package. I'm thinking that the travel time overseas helps condition and clean up the beers.

What do you guys think?

I don't think it does.  My turnaround on Belgian beers can be very quick and they don't exhibit any signs of needing more time.
can you elaborate on your process Denny?

Very close to the Chimay schedule.  4-7 days at 63.  Whenever I reach or get close to my expected FG, I jack the temp to 70-72.  I leave it there until I get the FG I expect, then crash to 33 for 3-5 days and keg.

Ok. So given my situation, FG reached, no further attenuation required or possible, is there any advantage to leaving the beer in primary?

I was planning on crashing it tonight.

Offline dilluh98

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Re: WY3787 Attenuation
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2016, 08:27:02 PM »
I think you'd really have to have a good handle on how your yeast behaves if you're going to significantly shorten the time in primary both in terms of flavor profile and in terms of leaving fermentable sugars when crashing. Being able to bottle condition a not fully attenuated (or cleaned up) beer and getting consistent 3.0 vol. CO2 sounds tricky at the homebrew level. Not saying it couldn't work but I'm not sure if the payoff is worth the effort. If you feel that this processing technique is what gives a beer a particular flavor profile you like then maybe it's worth trying out. If you do, keep us informed, I'd love to hear how it turned out.

I think there is a Δ here between my explanation and your interpretation. 

I'm assuming the beer is at its terminal gravity.

My beer is done fermenting. Does that change your response at all?

Fair enough. If it's done fermenting and you taste it and like the taste then it's probably ready to package. I've just never liked the taste of a saison after mid-60s full fermentation. The sweet spot for the saisons I typically make seems to be an additional 10-14 days at 70-72 F. Maybe I'm doing something wrong but I've never liked what I made on a 10-14 day total turnaround on a saison.

RPIScotty

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Re: WY3787 Attenuation
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2016, 08:33:56 PM »

I think you'd really have to have a good handle on how your yeast behaves if you're going to significantly shorten the time in primary both in terms of flavor profile and in terms of leaving fermentable sugars when crashing. Being able to bottle condition a not fully attenuated (or cleaned up) beer and getting consistent 3.0 vol. CO2 sounds tricky at the homebrew level. Not saying it couldn't work but I'm not sure if the payoff is worth the effort. If you feel that this processing technique is what gives a beer a particular flavor profile you like then maybe it's worth trying out. If you do, keep us informed, I'd love to hear how it turned out.

I think there is a Δ here between my explanation and your interpretation. 

I'm assuming the beer is at its terminal gravity.

My beer is done fermenting. Does that change your response at all?

Fair enough. If it's done fermenting and you taste it and like the taste then it's probably ready to package. I've just never liked the taste of a saison after mid-60s full fermentation. The sweet spot for the saisons I typically make seems to be an additional 10-14 days at 70-72 F. Maybe I'm doing something wrong but I've never liked what I made on a 10-14 day total turnaround on a saison.

Understood.

Conversely, I have never brewed a saison so I have no frame of reference about the fermentation requirements for that style.

We may be talking apples and oranges here!

Offline dilluh98

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Re: WY3787 Attenuation
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2016, 08:37:22 PM »
Maybe, but at the end of the day, an extra week in primary will not hurt the beer. It might help the beer considerably or only by a very small amount or none at all, but it certainly isn't hurting the beer. What's the rush?

Offline denny

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Re: WY3787 Attenuation
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2016, 08:52:44 PM »

Ok. So given my situation, FG reached, no further attenuation required or possible, is there any advantage to leaving the beer in primary?

I was planning on crashing it tonight.

You're the only who can decide that.  Taste it...that's what I do.  Put some in a PET bottle with a carb cap.  Hit it with 30 psi, shake the crap out of it and put it in the freezer for 45 min.  Your tastebuds will tell you what to do.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

RPIScotty

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Re: WY3787 Attenuation
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2016, 08:53:48 PM »

Maybe, but at the end of the day, an extra week in primary will not hurt the beer. It might help the beer considerably or only by a very small amount or none at all, but it certainly isn't hurting the beer. What's the rush?

I'm just of the opinion that why would you wait if you didn't have to?

You have a very compelling argument why you wait. You have obtained results empirically that tells you that waiting is good for the end product in your Saisons.

I want to believe that if the fermentation was healthy and beer tastes good that there isn't a need to let it "clean up".

I definitely respect all the opinions and advice though. I'm definitely not railing against you guys here.

RPIScotty

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Re: WY3787 Attenuation
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2016, 08:58:21 PM »


Ok. So given my situation, FG reached, no further attenuation required or possible, is there any advantage to leaving the beer in primary?

I was planning on crashing it tonight.

You're the only who can decide that.  Taste it...that's what I do.  Put some in a PET bottle with a carb cap.  Hit it with 30 psi, shake the crap out of it and put it in the freezer for 45 min.  Your tastebuds will tell you what to do.

I'm not a kegger so I don't have the equipment to do that but feel confident in crashing tonight. Thanks for the advice Denny.

Do you vary your schedule depending on the yeast used or is it pretty standard?

Offline denny

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Re: WY3787 Attenuation
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2016, 09:13:22 PM »

I'm not a kegger so I don't have the equipment to do that but feel confident in crashing tonight. Thanks for the advice Denny.

Do you vary your schedule depending on the yeast used or is it pretty standard?

Every ale starts with that kind of schedule in mind, then gets adjusted based on reality.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline dilluh98

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Re: WY3787 Attenuation
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2016, 09:46:16 PM »

I'm not a kegger so I don't have the equipment to do that but feel confident in crashing tonight. Thanks for the advice Denny.

Do you vary your schedule depending on the yeast used or is it pretty standard?

Every ale starts with that kind of schedule in mind, then gets adjusted based on reality.

+1.

There's also practicality to consider. Having a 1 year old, I don't have time during the week to bottle beer (barely time on the weekend for that matter). Therefore I have to bottle at 7 day intervals. One week is ok for low gravity/simple stuff. Two weeks is typically fine for most of the beer I brew (moderate gravity ales). Based on experience and tasting, three weeks works well for moderate/high gravity saisons for me. Maybe 17-18 days would be just as good as 21 but I'm not bottling on a Wednesday. The only thing I've let sit in primary for four weeks recently was my winter RIS at 11% ABV.

RPIScotty

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Re: WY3787 Attenuation
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2016, 09:50:03 PM »


I'm not a kegger so I don't have the equipment to do that but feel confident in crashing tonight. Thanks for the advice Denny.

Do you vary your schedule depending on the yeast used or is it pretty standard?

Every ale starts with that kind of schedule in mind, then gets adjusted based on reality.

+1.

There's also practicality to consider. Having a 1 year old, I don't have time during the week to bottle beer (barely time on the weekend for that matter). Therefore I have to bottle at 7 day intervals. One week is ok for low gravity/simple stuff. Two weeks is typically fine for most of the beer I brew (moderate gravity ales). Based on experience and tasting, three weeks works well for moderate/high gravity saisons for me. Maybe 17-18 days would be just as good as 21 but I'm not bottling on a Wednesday. The only thing I've let sit in primary for four weeks recently was my winter RIS at 11% ABV.

I hear you. I've got a 2 yr. old and 4 mo. old.

RPIScotty

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Re: WY3787 Attenuation
« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2016, 12:03:30 AM »
Currently sitting at 36°F

Offline dilluh98

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Re: WY3787 Attenuation
« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2016, 02:09:24 AM »