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Author Topic: Full Boil Impact  (Read 5734 times)

BurghBeezer

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Re: Full Boil Impact
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2016, 01:32:57 pm »
I boil very vigorously and that means for a 60 minute boil my kettle is fuller than I like.  The Experimental Brewing's episode #9 with the talk of sessions beers has me wanting to brew one.

Now I'm over-thinking...

If I do a 30 minute vigorous boil instead, my batch sparge water drops low enough that I would probably just add it to mash-out.  What efficiency drop would I expect from 'no sparge' and from short boil?

With a low gravity beer in the 1.036-1.038ish range I'm planning on 2.25-2.5 qts./lb. which is way thinner than the 1.25-1.5 qts./lb. I normally do.  I've read that once a mash gets 'too thin' the required mash time goes up; is a 40minute mash possible at 2.5 qts./lb.?

There has been quite a few posts on shortening brewing steps lately that really has me desiring shortening what I can.  Especially since moving to these hop-steeps long ago which have great results, but also add time.  Especially when brewing in the evening and finding myself pitching at midnight or later sometimes.

RPIScotty

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Full Boil Impact
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2016, 01:40:20 pm »
Dave:

I did not do the 40 minute mash this past weekend and defaulted to 60.

Next go round I am committing to 45 minute mash and 25 minute vigorous boil.

Offline denny

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Re: Full Boil Impact
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2016, 01:53:00 pm »
Being the picky sort, I thought I'd chime in ;-)

A list of flavors from melanoidins from Designing Great Beers, by Ray Daniels:
"Chocolate, Rye bread, Musty, Violets, Buttery, Burnt, Toasted, Fruity aromatic, Rose perfume, Rock candy, Caramel, Bready, maple syrup, Burnt protein, Sweet"

However this is from malt, NOT from the boil.  My understanding is that there is very little melanoidin development in even the most vigorous boil - the level is probably just academic as opposed to something discernable.


Ya know, that book is old enough you have to know what to use and what to ignore.  When it was written, it was common in the brewing world to refer to melanoidins as flavors.  As brewing got more precise, the terminology did also.
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Offline denny

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Re: Full Boil Impact
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2016, 01:54:01 pm »
I boil very vigorously and that means for a 60 minute boil my kettle is fuller than I like.  The Experimental Brewing's episode #9 with the talk of sessions beers has me wanting to brew one.

Now I'm over-thinking...

If I do a 30 minute vigorous boil instead, my batch sparge water drops low enough that I would probably just add it to mash-out.  What efficiency drop would I expect from 'no sparge' and from short boil?

With a low gravity beer in the 1.036-1.038ish range I'm planning on 2.25-2.5 qts./lb. which is way thinner than the 1.25-1.5 qts./lb. I normally do.  I've read that once a mash gets 'too thin' the required mash time goes up; is a 40minute mash possible at 2.5 qts./lb.?

There has been quite a few posts on shortening brewing steps lately that really has me desiring shortening what I can.  Especially since moving to these hop-steeps long ago which have great results, but also add time.  Especially when brewing in the evening and finding myself pitching at midnight or later sometimes.

In the situation you mention, my efficiency is pretty much the same as doing a normal batch sparge.  When I make a small beer and intend to do no sparge, I mash with around my normal ratio...1.75-2qt./lb.  Then I add the rest of the water before runoff.  That way I don't think my mash ratio.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline yso191

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Re: Full Boil Impact
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2016, 02:09:13 pm »
Being the picky sort, I thought I'd chime in ;-)

A list of flavors from melanoidins from Designing Great Beers, by Ray Daniels:
"Chocolate, Rye bread, Musty, Violets, Buttery, Burnt, Toasted, Fruity aromatic, Rose perfume, Rock candy, Caramel, Bready, maple syrup, Burnt protein, Sweet"

However this is from malt, NOT from the boil.  My understanding is that there is very little melanoidin development in even the most vigorous boil - the level is probably just academic as opposed to something discernable.


Ya know, that book is old enough you have to know what to use and what to ignore.  When it was written, it was common in the brewing world to refer to melanoidins as flavors.  As brewing got more precise, the terminology did also.

But do we not get a lot of those flavors based on roasting or kilning malts to varying levels, and are they not a direct result of melanoidin development?  If not, what accounts for the variety of flavors and flavor changes that occur at differing lovibond levels in malts?
Steve
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Full Boil Impact
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2016, 02:58:18 pm »
Dave:

I did not do the 40 minute mash this past weekend and defaulted to 60.

Next go round I am committing to 45 minute mash and 25 minute vigorous boil.

Sweet.  I bet it turns out great.  Just consider knocking ~5% efficiency off from whatever you normally get, to ensure you hit your OG target due to sparging less to get your required pre-boil volume, i.e., collecting less sugars from the malts.
Dave

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Offline denny

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Re: Full Boil Impact
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2016, 03:00:06 pm »
Being the picky sort, I thought I'd chime in ;-)

A list of flavors from melanoidins from Designing Great Beers, by Ray Daniels:
"Chocolate, Rye bread, Musty, Violets, Buttery, Burnt, Toasted, Fruity aromatic, Rose perfume, Rock candy, Caramel, Bready, maple syrup, Burnt protein, Sweet"

However this is from malt, NOT from the boil.  My understanding is that there is very little melanoidin development in even the most vigorous boil - the level is probably just academic as opposed to something discernable.


Ya know, that book is old enough you have to know what to use and what to ignore.  When it was written, it was common in the brewing world to refer to melanoidins as flavors.  As brewing got more precise, the terminology did also.

But do we not get a lot of those flavors based on roasting or kilning malts to varying levels, and are they not a direct result of melanoidin development?  If not, what accounts for the variety of flavors and flavor changes that occur at differing lovibond levels in malts?

No, those flavors are due to Maillard reactions.  The same reactions create melaniodins also, but they are 2 different things.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Full Boil Impact
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2016, 03:02:06 pm »
If I do a 30 minute vigorous boil instead, my batch sparge water drops low enough that I would probably just add it to mash-out.  What efficiency drop would I expect from 'no sparge' and from short boil?

With a low gravity beer in the 1.036-1.038ish range I'm planning on 2.25-2.5 qts./lb. which is way thinner than the 1.25-1.5 qts./lb. I normally do.  I've read that once a mash gets 'too thin' the required mash time goes up; is a 40minute mash possible at 2.5 qts./lb.?

There has been quite a few posts on shortening brewing steps lately that really has me desiring shortening what I can.  Especially since moving to these hop-steeps long ago which have great results, but also add time.  Especially when brewing in the evening and finding myself pitching at midnight or later sometimes.

No-sparge brewing will reduce your efficiency substantially.  I would say it's down to about 55% for a regular strength beer, and maybe a bit better around 60-65% for a small beer around 1.038.

2.5 qts/lb is no big deal at all.  You'll still get sufficient conversion, efficiency & attenuation, mashing at that ratio for just 40 minutes in my experience.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one anymore interested in saving time.  Cheers!
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 03:03:47 pm by dmtaylor »
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

RPIScotty

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Re: Full Boil Impact
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2016, 03:12:30 pm »

If I do a 30 minute vigorous boil instead, my batch sparge water drops low enough that I would probably just add it to mash-out.  What efficiency drop would I expect from 'no sparge' and from short boil?

With a low gravity beer in the 1.036-1.038ish range I'm planning on 2.25-2.5 qts./lb. which is way thinner than the 1.25-1.5 qts./lb. I normally do.  I've read that once a mash gets 'too thin' the required mash time goes up; is a 40minute mash possible at 2.5 qts./lb.?

There has been quite a few posts on shortening brewing steps lately that really has me desiring shortening what I can.  Especially since moving to these hop-steeps long ago which have great results, but also add time.  Especially when brewing in the evening and finding myself pitching at midnight or later sometimes.

No-sparge brewing will reduce your efficiency substantially.  I would say it's down to about 55% for a regular strength beer, and maybe a bit better around 60-65% for a small beer around 1.038.

2.5 qts/lb is no big deal at all.  You'll still get sufficient conversion, efficiency & attenuation, mashing at that ratio for just 40 minutes in my experience.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one anymore interested in saving time.  Cheers!

2 kids and a full time job makes you try to save time where you can!

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Full Boil Impact
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2016, 03:27:17 pm »
2 kids and a full time job makes you try to save time where you can!

Try 3 kids and 60-hour weeks!  I've got that going for the next month or so.  Unfortunately, enriched uranium-235 only has a useful life of a few years, after which we just set it in a pool or in a bunker outside to cool the rest of the way over the next 10,000 years.   ;D
Dave

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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Full Boil Impact
« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2016, 03:37:38 pm »
Can you create melanoidins without changing flavor?

Offline denny

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Re: Full Boil Impact
« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2016, 03:40:04 pm »
Can you create melanoidins without changing flavor?

Damn good question...
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Frankenbrew

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Re: Full Boil Impact
« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2016, 03:42:47 pm »
2 kids and a full time job makes you try to save time where you can!

Try 3 kids and 60-hour weeks!  I've got that going for the next month or so.  Unfortunately, enriched uranium-235 only has a useful life of a few years, after which we just set it in a pool or in a bunker outside to cool the rest of the way over the next 10,000 years.   ;D

The way you put it, Dave, it sounds like uranium-235 is a metaphor for yourself.  ;)
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RPIScotty

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Re: Full Boil Impact
« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2016, 04:00:08 pm »

2 kids and a full time job makes you try to save time where you can!

Try 3 kids and 60-hour weeks!  I've got that going for the next month or so.  Unfortunately, enriched uranium-235 only has a useful life of a few years, after which we just set it in a pool or in a bunker outside to cool the rest of the way over the next 10,000 years.   ;D

Your a nuke! Me too. I've got an outage coming up as well.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Full Boil Impact
« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2016, 04:53:05 pm »
Your a nuke! Me too. I've got an outage coming up as well.

Hey, another one!  It's surprising how a disproportionate number of nuclear workers are into homebrewing.  Engineers and IT guys especially.  Don't know why, just seems true the world over, not just here but everywhere.
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.